Is Believing in God(s) a Choice?

[firedragon]

She actually wrote which one.

Sorry I missed it. I will go back and check. Thank you very much.

 

[firedragon]

I refer to only one of them and not the others. I refer to agent-causal libertarian free will,

That would mean we make choices.

 

[Willamena]

That would mean we make choices.

Technically it means that I make choices. Yes.

 

[PureX]

I personally don't think we choose our beliefs. We are either convinced or we are not convinced.

Who decides when you are convinced? Who decides what it takes to convince you? Who decides what it will take to convince you otherwise?

 

[Audie]

Who decides when you are convinced? Who decides what it takes to convince you? Who decides what it will take to convince you otherwise?

No doubt it's a choice whether to believe
you have put your hand on a hot stove.

 

[PureX]

No doubt it's a choice whether to believe
you have put your hand on a hot stove.

The fact that you had to reach that far afield to try and make your point only shows me how weak that point is.

 

[Audie]

The fact that you had to reach that far afield to try and make your point only shows me how weak that point is.

Ha. As if.
It's a simple example to
show how simple minded the
"belief is a choice" nonsense is.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Who decides when you are convinced? Who decides what it takes to convince you? Who decides what it will take to convince you otherwise?

Who says its anyone's decision?

 

[PureX]

Who says its anyone's decision?

You did, when you declared that you were convinced.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You did, when you declared that you were convinced.

I said a person is either convinced or not convinced. I did not say they decided to become convinced.

 

[PureX]

I said a person is either convinced or not convinced. I did not say they decided to become convinced.

They still decided that they had been convinced. And that they still are convinced.

 

[PureX]

Let's say I am sitting around contemplating waterfalls. Thinking about how pretty they look, and how relaxing they sound, and how exciting it is to come across one because they're somewhat rare, and so on. And then, for no reason at all, I decide to stop thinking about waterfalls and I choose to think about airplanes, instead. And I can do this because I can tell my own mind what to think about, and how to think about it. It's as easy as snapping my fingers. I don't even need a reason to change. I can change the whole thought narrative just be deciding to. Instantly. The same way as I can raise my arm in the air just by deciding to. Decide - done.

Now let's say I'm sitting around thinking about God. Thinking about all the ways that I find it impossible to believe that anything like what I imagine God to be, or have been told that God is, could actually exist. And I'm thinking about how my doubt is overwhelmingly reasonable given all the evidence I see against the existence of any gods. And yet, still, at any point in this mental narrative I could choose to stop thinking those things and instead to start thinking about all the ways I might choose to defend the idea of God/gods existing. Just like that. And for no reason at all, I could choose to think along a completely different line of reasoning to a completely different conclusion. Easy as choosing to wave my hand above my head, for no reason at all. Because I have control over what I think, how I think, and even whether or not I'm thinking anything.

And every person reading this post has the exact same ability to control their own mental dialogue as I do. There is nothing whatever stopping any of you from doing it. You can think about all your reasons to accept the idea of God existing, and you can think about all your reasons for not accepting that idea. And you can do this at will, in an instant, simply by choosing to. You are not trapped by your own reasoning (as some of you seem to be suggesting) because you don't even need a reason to change the reasoning. Just snap your fingers and it's done. Just like that. Decide - done.

 

[Audie]

They still decided that they had been convinced. And that they still are convinced.

So hold your hand on the stove pending a decision?

 

[Audie]

Let's say I am sitting around contemplating waterfalls. Thinking about how pretty they look, and how relaxing they sound, and how exciting it is to come across one because they're somewhat rare, and so on. And then, for no reason at all, I decide to stop thinking about waterfalls and I choose to think about airplanes, instead. And I can do this because I can tell my own mind what to think about, and how to think about it. It's as easy as snapping my fingers. I don't even need a reason to change. I can change the whole thought narrative just be deciding to. Instantly. The same way as I can raise my arm in the air just by deciding to. Decide - done.

Now let's say I'm sitting around thinking about God. Thinking about all the ways that I find it impossible to believe that anything like what I imagine God to be, or have been told that God is, could actually exist. And I'm thinking about how my doubt is overwhelmingly reasonable given all the evidence I see against the existence of any gods. And yet, still, at any point in this mental narrative I could choose to stop thinking those things and instead to start thinking about all the ways I might choose to defend the idea of God/gods existing. Just like that. And for no reason at all, I could choose to think along a completely different line of reasoning to a completely different conclusion. Easy as choosing to wave my hand above my head, for no reason at all. Because I have control over what I think, how I think, and even whether or not I'm thinking anything.

And every person reading this post has the exact same ability to control their own mental dialogue as I do. There is nothing whatever stopping any of you from doing it. You can think about all your reasons to accept the idea of God existing, and you can think about all your reasons for not accepting that idea. And you can do this at will, in an instant, simply by choosing to. You are not trapped by your own reasoning (as some of you seem to be suggesting) because you don't even need a reason to change the reasoning. Just snap your fingers and it's done. Just like that. Decide - done.

Economy of words shows mental
discipline.
You don't.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They still decided that they had been convinced. And that they still are convinced.

No, one recognizes that one is convinced. It's not a decision. You can struggle with this all you want, you can disagree with me til the cows come home. I still don't think we choose our beliefs.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, one recognizes that one is convinced. It's not a decision. You can struggle with this all you want, you can disagree with me til the cows come home. I still don't think we choose our beliefs.

I agree with you to some extent..
..but why do you think that people believe in G-d?
Is it just social conditioning .. or something more?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree with you to some extent..
..but why do you think that people believe in G-d?
Is it just social conditioning .. or something more?

I think it is a lot of reasons. Those you've brought up, and perhaps more than that as well. I think that we have a kind of God radar, a sense, that is undeveloped. Kind of like an eye that only sees black and white. So it is pretty nearly universal that people sense some sort of divine, although we differ on how we interpret what we sense, like in the story of the blind men and the elephants. I think some people just have a broken God radar, just as some people are deaf or blind. But that's just me thinking. I don't think God can be proven or disproven, but one can trust ones flawed sense. It's really very complicated, because then one bounces that off of such things as the problem of suffering.

 

[PureX]

No, one recognizes that one is convinced. It's not a decision. You can struggle with this all you want, you can disagree with me til the cows come home. I still don't think we choose our beliefs.

Do you think that you cannot control your own thoughts?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you think that you cannot control your own thoughts?

Science has pretty much determined that our choices are made unconsciously, followed by a conscious awareness where we tell ourselves "reasons" that really had nothing to do with our decisions.

"Contrary to what most of us would like to believe, decision-making may be a process handled to a large extent by unconscious mental activity. A team of scientists has unraveled how the brain actually unconsciously prepares our decisions." Decision-making May Be Surprisingly Unconscious Activity.

 

[PureX]

Science has pretty much determined that our choices are made unconsciously, followed by a conscious awareness where we tell ourselves "reasons" that really had nothing to do with our decisions.

Even if that were so, we are still making choices. And once we become conscious of this fact, we can consciously make other choices. I can tell my brain what to think, and how to think about it whenever I want. I can even make my brain contradict it's own thinking, at will. Am I some sort if super human?

"Contrary to what most of us would like to believe, decision-making may be a process handled to a large extent by unconscious mental activity. A team of scientists has unraveled how the brain actually unconsciously prepares our decisions." Decision-making May Be Surprisingly Unconscious Activity.

I'm not sure why you seem to be assuming that our unconsciously made choices are somehow not our choices. Is our unconscious mind someone else's mind? And why are unconscious choices not choices?

All this "unconsciousness" is, is our being unaware of our own thought processes. But those aspects of ourselves that we are not at this moment aware of are still aspects of ourselves. They are still us. As an example: at any given moment of the day I am not consciously aware of my own feet. Yet they are part of me. Even when I get up and walk, I am not consciously aware of my doing it, yet I am waking on my own feet. And I would not, upon discovering myself on the other side of the room, presume that I did not walk there by my own volition even though I did so "unconsciously". Would you?

So although we humans do make many of our decisions unconsciously, we are still humans making decisions. And those decisions are still OUR decisions. And once we become conscious of these decisions having been made, we can consciously choose to make a different decision, for any reason or for no reason at all. Just as I can consciously choose to make my mind think in a contrary manner than it was thinking just a moment ago. And so can any other human on the planet.