Is Believing in God(s) a Choice?

[PureX]

I have no idea what you're going on about.

I don't recall ever saying anything about any "outside power" convincing me of anything.

I can't "change my mind" and force myself to believe things for which I am not convinced of.

Why believe ANYTHING? Why adopt the position of being "convinced" when we know we can always be wrong? What does this "conviction" even mean when we know we know we could always be wrong? Isn't this 'convincing' just taking the position of our ignoring our doubt? And isn't this really the reason why you presume, now, that you can't change your mind?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why believe ANYTHING? Why adopt the position of being "convinced" when we know we can always be wrong? What does this "conviction" even mean when we know we know we could always be wrong? Isn't this 'convincing' just taking the position of our ignoring our doubt? And isn't this really the reason why you presume, now, that you can't change your mind?

I don't presume that I can't change my mind.
Why believe anything? Because that's how human minds work.

 

[PureX]

Choosing to believe is just self deception /
intellectual dishonesty, a failure of integrity.

And religious people consider that a great virtue.

Some do. But once we understand the difference between belief, and faith, we realize that there are very few "true believers" in any church. Most are there trying to keep their faith. Even in the churches that are pushing for unquestioned belief, constantly, there are few true believers. Meanwhile, you atheists never see anyone else.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't presume that I can't change my mind.
Why believe anything? Because that's how human minds work.

Well, there is in limited sense the method of withholding judgment for some ways of doing beliefs as true knowledge or false knowledge as there is: I don't know.

So if someone only believe in true knowledge or false knowledge, then that person can't believe in: I don't know.

 

[Audie]

Some do. But once we understand the difference between belief, and faith, we realize that there are very few "true believers" in any church. Most are there trying to keep their faith. Even in the churches that are pushing for unquestioned belief, constantly, there are few true believers. Meanwhile, you atheists never see anyone else.

Right-choose to believe and when you've
internized it, then it's Faith, a highest virtue.

We see that same process, glorifying the
negation of integrity from every yec
who posts about evolution or deep time.

Somehow I don't find that wonderful or admirable.

No more than I do your mandatory swipe at
atheists which, btw,
is even more vacuous than usual.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Right-choose to believe and when you've
internized it, then it's Faith, a highest virtue.

We see that same process, glorifying the
negation of integrity from every yec
who posts about evolution or deep time.

Somehow I don't find that wonderful or admirable.

No more than I do your mandatory bigoted swipe at atheists which, btw,
is even more vacuous than usual.

And that is all the worlds is: YECs and then you are not that. That is all you ever do. Debate YECs as the only version of religion and all you do.
You and the "wrong" people.

 

[Audie]

I think you are being unfair to these people, or maybe applying too strict a definition of belief.

Ask a typical Southern Baptist if he believes there is a God and you will get very definite "yes". I lived in GA for a number of years and experienced it directly. These people live and breathe "God" and their conversation reflects it. "The high winds didn't blow down my tree" is stated as "God saved my tree from being blown down". (An actual conversation I recall).

Now the basis for their belief system might be dubious from a skeptical pov, but nevertheless they do believe, and very strongly in most cases. It's a lot more than being pressured to adopt a certain "front". They will listen to your skeptical arguments, if you want to tread that dangerous path, but in the end their essential belief rebounds, like a spring after you stop compressing it. It's belief, no matter how it was formed, and they feel very comfortable with it.

North Koreans after escape have a very hard time believing that their side actually started the war.
Some achieve the epiphany, others cannot.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

North Koreans after escape have a very hard time believing that their side actually started the war.
Some achieve the epiphany, others cannot.

And your epiphany is the correct one for all humans for all cases of being a human. Your cultural framing is not really cultural, because it is the universal standard. I know, I can't do that. Could you get that epiphany?

 

[PureX]

I think you are being unfair to these people, or maybe applying too strict a definition of belief.

Ask a typical Southern Baptist if he believes there is a God and you will get very definite "yes". I lived in GA for a number of years and experienced it directly. These people live and breathe "God" and their conversation reflects it. "The high winds didn't blow down my tree" is stated as "God saved my tree from being blown down". (An actual conversation I recall).

Who were they trying to convince, themselves or you? And if they were such true believers, why were they trying to convince anyone?

Such bluster is often accompanied by hidden internal doubt. It's why the quiet man down at the bar that isn't bothering anyone is the guy you don't want to mess with. While the loudmouth at the other end that's trying to tell everyone how tough he is, probably isn't all that tough.

I also lived in the south for some years, and long enough to know it's a surprisingly psychotic and ruthless culture. It's wonderful and friendly and generous on the surface, but if you dare to fall cross-ways of the status quo, or you threaten the long established social 'pecking order' in some way, the response can be fast, vicious, and ruthless. And I don't mean in terms of racism. It's far more pervasive then that. It effects everyone on every level of that society. And religion plays a significant role in establishing and maintaining that very rigid 'pecking order'. Such that if you live there, you'd better be very wary of how you relate yourself to religion. And if you grew up there, you will likely have witnessed what happens to those that weren't. I'm just sayin', the south is a very odd, duplicitous culture. One that demands a lot of people wear a lot of masks.

Now the basis for their belief system might be dubious from a skeptical pov, but nevertheless they do believe, and very strongly in most cases.

How would you know, though, really? It's not the kind of environment were religious doubt can be expressed freely. And especially, without consequences.

It's a lot more than being pressured to adopt a certain "front". They will listen to your skeptical arguments, if you want to tread that dangerous path, but in the end their essential belief rebounds, like a spring after you stop compressing it. It's belief, no matter how it was formed, and they feel very comfortable with it.

For some it is. For many, though, it's just a willingness to believe hiding behind the mask of bravado. I would not use a southern U.S. Christian as a template for Christianity. That culture is way too peculiar, scary, and eccentric for that. IMO

 

[PureX]

I don't presume that I can't change my mind.
Why believe anything? Because that's how human minds work.

It's your mind, you can control how it works if you have a mind to.

 

[PureX]

Right-choose to believe and when you've
internalized it, then it's Faith, a highest virtue.

That's the BS that the cult-churches try to push on people, yes. And some of their members actually believe it. While most are simply ignorant of the differences between faith and belief, and so they know no better. But in practice unquestioned belief is very difficult to achieve and to hold onto, because it's STUPID. By that I mean it's a set-up for failure. And with that failure will come doubts, of course. As they should.

Whereas with faith, as opposed to belief, one is allowed to doubt. Skepticism is expected, and assumed. Faith is a choice, not a command. One that we might take up and lay down again many, many times in life.

We see that same process, glorifying the negation of integrity from every yec who posts about evolution or deep time.

And as I said, all YOU ever see are the cult-like "true believers" among the many millions of normal, faithful-but-skeptical Christians in the world. They are all invisible to you.

 

[Audie]

That's the BS that the cult-churches try to push on people, yes. And some of their members actually believe it. While most are simply ignorant of the differences between faith and belief, and so they know no better. But in practice unquestioned belief is very difficult to achieve and to hold onto, because it's STUPID. By that I mean it's a set-up for failure. And with that failure will come doubts, of course. As they should.

Whereas with faith, as opposed to belief, one is allowed to doubt. Skepticism is expected, and assumed. Faith is a choice, not a command. One that we might take up and lay down again many, many times in life.
And as I said, all YOU ever see are the cult-like "true believers" among the many millions of normal, faithful-but-skeptical Christians in the world. They are all invisible to you.

It's stupid but an awful lot of people
succeed. They don't find it so hard, it just
requires stubborn self righteousness.

The kind of faith that allows for doubt is universal. No special virtue to that.Faith without doubt is the Christian virtue.

The paucity of your arguments is well
defined need to make things up.
As per your last paragraph.

Self deception,if that's what it is, is reflective of lack of integrity.
If it's not self deception on your part,it's something worse.

 

[PureX]

It's stupid but an awful lot of people
succeed. They don't find it so hard, it just
requires stubborn self righteousness.

You want to see them all that way, so you presume they are all that way. Or most all that way. But they aren't.

The kind of faith that allows for doubt is universal. No special virtue to that. Faith without doubt is the Christian virtue.

Again, without that view, your bias and deep resentment has nowhere else to hang it's hat.

Self deception, if that's what it is, is reflective of lack of integrity.

EVERYONE is "self-deceived". It's part of the human condition. Which is why honesty and humility matter so much. And it's not a particularly Christian failure to fall victim to hubris and self-deception. I have known may an atheist to do the same.

 

[Willamena]

Any kind. LIbertarian free-will. noncausal, agent causal, what ever causal is still libertarian free-will if its libertarian free-will.

I am asking you what your stance is since you are not a determinist.

That's the point of asking, though: they are not the same thing. When I say libertarian in reference to free will, I refer to only one of them and not the others. I refer to agent-causal libertarian free will, which asserts that "unlike nonrational agents, we have the power to do or not to do, and much of what we do is voluntary, such that its origin is ‘in us’ and we are ‘aware of the particular circumstances of the action’..."
Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That, to me, is what free will is. I am the cause of my actions (including choice).

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's the point of asking, though: they are not the same thing. When I say libertarian in reference to free will, I refer to only one of them and not the others. I refer to agent-causal libertarian free will, which asserts that "unlike nonrational agents, we have the power to do or not to do, and much of what we do is voluntary, such that its origin is ‘in us’ and we are ‘aware of the particular circumstances of the action’..."
Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That, to me, is what free will is.

The "I" is properly not an agent, but a narrative. But we really don't know, because we can't objectively observe an "I".

 

[firedragon]

When I say libertarian in reference to free will, I refer to only one of them

Which one?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which one?

She actually wrote which one.

 

[Willamena]

The "I" is properly not an agent, but a narrative. But we really don't know, because we can't objectively observe an "I".

I do not disagree with that. Free will is essentially narrative. We can narrate ourselves into the story (agent causal), exclude ourselves from the story (event causal), or include magical elements in the story (god causal, for instance).

 

[Audie]

You want to see them all that way, so you presume they are all that way. Or most all that way. But they aren't.
Again, without that view, your bias and deep resentment has nowhere else to hang it's hat.
EVERYONE is "self-deceived". It's part of the human condition. Which is why honesty and humility matter so much. And it's not a particularly Christian failure to fall victim to hubris and self-deception. I have known may an atheist to do the same.

Everything up to "everyone," is just a flame,
things you made up, an unfortunate pattern
you repeat over and over.

Is it self deception?Do you really
believe it?. It doesn't fool me.
And it sure is not honest.

Last paragraph. Yes, it's the human condition.
And anyone who finds in it cause for consternation is just a fool for expecting any
different. Terrif, news of the obvious.

However, there are intellectual disciplines such
as in math, engineering, science, that make
of necessity, objectivity a highest value,
and as Feynman puti t, knowing you
are the easiest one to fool.

And there are traditions that praise doing the
opposite.

I very much doubt that " easiest to feel' is remotely
ever mentioned in any religious tradition.
Nor in commieland.

Tell us if you know of an exception.


If you write again could you at least consider
being more honest and stop making things up?

It's a choice you have, you can decide whether to stop
or keep digging in deeper.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It was suggested in another thread that one can choose to be a believer or not.

Is it a choice, is it something inherent to one's psyche, or is a product of one's environment and experience?

I personally don't think we choose our beliefs. We are either convinced or we are not convinced.