Is Bible literal young earth Christian fundamentalism turning people away from God?

[Katzpur]

I believe you should say whether that is simply a personal decision or church doctrine.

It's Church doctrine as I understand it, and my understanding comes from The Book of Mormon, which is about as doctrinal in nature as you can get. 2 Nephi 9:41 says, "O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there"

 

[viole]

What do you think?

I think I should take them as seriously as I take you seriously. Ceteris paribus, answers to prayers, miracles, or whatever amazing,...., seems to be equally distributed among religions. And they all present the same evidence.

You know, something like:

1) God cured my cancer or any other internal medicine issue. The fact that He never cures amputees or people with genetic diseases, is not important
2) God cured me from my cigarette addictions. The fact that millions of children die evey year is obviously not so important as the risk of me getting lung cancer
Etc.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChanaR]

YEC, and concrete literal fundamentalism will always turn off a certain percentage of people to Christianity, because they don't have the imagination to see that there can be a deeper, fuller, richer version. Nor do they do their homework and find it. They just buy into the cheap charicatures in the movies, and notice the sensationalist headlines in the news, and that's it.

It's also very hard for those raised in fundamentalism to come out of it, it's a bit jarring to flip world views, and for some it's disillusioning. Some are stuck in the belief that if their literal religion isn't true, then none of it is true, and they throw out the baby with the bath water. They never bother to talk to or try to understand how other Christians think.

 

[ChanaR]

I was reading an article yesterday that recent scientific research shows that those who reject evolution are NOT less educated and they in fact are just as skilled in scientific reasoning as those who accept evolution. The problem seems to be solely religion. https://blogs.biomedcentral.com/on-...t-about-lack-of-scientific-reasoning-ability/

IOW, a change needs to be made in the way evolution is presented, so that it is presented as not as an alternative to religion. People think they have to pick one or the other, and that's a false dichotomy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think I should take them as seriously as I take you seriously. Ceteris paribus, answers to prayers, miracles, or whatever amazing,...., seems to be equally distributed among religions. And they all present the same evidence.

You know, something like:

1) God cured my cancer or any other internal medicine issue. The fact that He never cures amputees or people with genetic diseases, is not important
2) God cured me from my cigarette addictions. The fact that millions of children die evey year is obviously not so important as the risk of me getting lung cancer
Etc.

Ciao

- viole

Except that what you said is not true, at all. Christians present many types of evidence including fulfilled prophecy AND the healing of amputees and people with varied diseases.

And you still have a double standard because you would say with a straight face:

"I'm a skeptic materialist evolutionist who believes that evolution and environment determines who lives and dies, but God cannot exist because we humans care when weak human children die, not that we have souls . . . "

 

[viole]

Except that what you said is not true, at all. Christians present many types of evidence including fulfilled prophecy AND the healing of amputees and people with varied diseases.

And I am sure you have a lot of evidence of it. At present, all miracles I hear are all about cancer and such. Internal medicine, basically, where you do not really know what is going on. Do you have something like cured Down Syndrome, Siamese Twins, Amputees, etc, for a change? If yes, where?

My impression is that your God performs miracles only if they are such that they could be no miracles at all. What would any rational person think?

And you still have a double standard because you would say with a straight face:

"I'm a skeptic materialist evolutionist who believes that evolution and environment determines who lives and dies, but God cannot exist because we humans care when weak human children die, not that we have souls . . . "

You are becoming unintelligible. I never said that God cannot exist. Not even Mickey Mouse cannot exist.

I only claim that your God (you know, the one who took a few days off for our sins) is totally implausible.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

And I am sure you have a lot of evidence of it. At present, all miracles I hear are all about cancer and such. Internal medicine, basically, where you do not really know what is going on. Do you have something like cured Down Syndrome, Siamese Twins, Amputees, etc, for a change? If yes, where?

My impression is that your God performs miracles only if they are such that they could be no miracles at all. What would any rational person think?



You are becoming unintelligible. I never said that God cannot exist. Not even Mickey Mouse cannot exist.

I only claim that your God (you know, the one who took a few days off for our sins) is totally implausible.

Ciao

- viole

Respectfully, can I tell you that you are a horrible person IMHO?

HOW DARE YOU SAY Siamese Twins and Down Syndrome persons, made in God's image and who glorify Him, need to be "cured".

You DISGUST me. HOW DARE YOU. However, I forgive you, in the Name of Jesus.

Please go away, you are furthering the myth that all skeptics are horrible people.

 

[viole]

Respectfully, can I tell you that you are a horrible person IMHO?

HOW DARE YOU SAY Siamese Twins and Down Syndrome persons, made in God's image and who glorify Him, need to be "cured".

I ama Scandinavian, and even if I am sure you will recoil at hearing that, i tell you that we abort fetuses screened for genetic diseases. In Denmark it is a 98% of all fetuses with the Down Syndrom. I believe Germany is not so far away.

The law actually allows abortion after the standard time limit in case of detected genetic diseases.

I know it is controversial, but that is the way it is. Whether you like it or not. And honestly, hearing moral suggestions from people who believe that absolute morality comes from books that accept slavery and the killing of healthy children, is like being accused of antisemitism by a nazi.

So, if you do not like it AND you believe in the effectivity of prayer, then I can only recommend that you pray that North European women stop doing that. We can check how effective that is.

So, I am sre that if prayer were effective, then there would be less abortions. But it is not, obviously. It is like talking to the wind.

For what concerns siamese twins, it is obvious that they are cured if possible. Surgeons do that all the time, and when one is successful everyone is happy and sometimes they even praise the local God (instead of the surgeons for some reason).

And I don’t know you. But if I shared a brain with my twin sister and I glorified God (also for some reason) I would give it a try with a prayer.

Wouldn’t you?

I think you are angry because you know very well that prayer effectivity is a fantasy.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

I ama Scandinavian, and even if I am sure you will recoil at hearing that, i tell you that we abort fetuses screened for genetic diseases. In Denmark it is a 98% of all fetuses with the Down Syndrom. I believe Germany is not so far away.

The law actually allows abortion after the standard time limit in case of detected genetic diseases.

I know it is controversial, but that is the way it is. Whether you like it or not. And honestly, hearing moral suggestions from people who believe that absolute morality comes from books that accept slavery and the killing of healthy children, is like being accused of antisemitism by a nazi.

So, if you do not like it AND you believe in the effectivity of prayer, then I can only recommend that you pray that North European women stop doing that. We can check how effective that is.

So, I am sre that if prayer were effective, then there would be less abortions. But it is not, obviously. It is like talking to the wind.

For what concerns siamese twins, it is obvious that they are cured if possible. Surgeons do that all the time, and when one is successful everyone is happy and sometimes they even praise the local God (instead of the surgeons for some reason).

And I don’t know you. But if I shared a brain with my twin sister and I glorified God (also for some reason) I would give it a try with a prayer.

Wouldn’t you?

I think you are angry because you know very well that prayer effectivity is a fantasy.

Ciao

- viole

1. I'm not angry.

2. Down Syndrome children are gentle, lovely, creations. I'm sorry your culture preys upon the weak to continue policies which can be described as Nazi-like IMO.

 

[viole]

1. I'm not angry.

2. Down Syndrome children are gentle, lovely, creations. I'm sorry your culture preys upon the weak to continue policies which can be described as Nazi-like IMO.

First of all, we do not prey on the weak since we do not kill children with diseases. We might abort fetues screened positive, but that is killing only for you and the few crucifix wearing people left here, since we do not recognize personhood during the first months of gestation.

Let me ask you this. If there were a magical button that magically removes all genetic defects (including DS) so that from now on only children without genetic issues are born.....would you press it?

Another related question: do you give any money to research that tries to fight those genetic issues?

I hope you do not think I am a nazi, since I do give money for that every year.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

First of all, we do not prey on the weak since we do not kill children with diseases. We might abort fetues screened positive, but that is killing only for you and the few crucifix wearing people left here, since we do not recognize personhood during the first months of gestation.

Let me ask you this. If there were a magical button that magically removes all genetic defects (including DS) so that from now on only children without genetic issues are born.....would you press it?

Another related question: do you give any money to research that tries to fight those genetic issues?

I hope you do not think I am a nazi, since I do give money for that every year.

Ciao

- viole

Before I press that button, can I be sure of the implications to all persons? Could I be starting WW III pressing that button? Is there an omniscient being who can help me make the right decision, or simply make the decision for me?

 

[viole]

Before I press that button, can I be sure of the implications to all persons? Could I be starting WW III pressing that button? Is there an omniscient being who can help me make the right decision, or simply make the decision for me?

No. You would cure all genetic issues from the start, and only that. No fetus will ever develop a genetic issue.

But since you seem to think that genetic issues do not need to be cured, or it is outrageous to even try that, I need to know whether:

1) You prefer to leave it open, because they are gentle, sweet, and probably not such jerks as viole, etc
2) You prefer to eradicate that syndrome

So, would you press it or not?

Don't dance around. It is a very simple question.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

No. You would cure all genetic issues from the start, and only that. No fetus will ever develop a genetic issue.

But since you seem to think that genetic issues do not need to be cured, or it is outrageous to even try that, I need to know whether:

1) You prefer to leave it open, because they are gentle, sweet, and probably not such jerks as viole, etc
2) You prefer to eradicate that syndrome

So, would you press it or not?

Don't dance around. It is a very simple question.

Ciao

- viole

As a friend to you, the difference between us is I ask God, and do so more based on how big the button is. I WANT a President, for example, who asks God before he dares to press some nuclear button or pardon some criminal! If only we had leaders who love God!

 

[Muffled]

It's Church doctrine as I understand it, and my understanding comes from The Book of Mormon, which is about as doctrinal in nature as you can get. 2 Nephi 9:41 says, "O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there"

I believe the Book of Mormon is no better than commentary on the Bible so it behooves one to find what is being commented upon as a proof of doctrine.

 

[Muffled]

YEC, and concrete literal fundamentalism will always turn off a certain percentage of people to Christianity, because they don't have the imagination to see that there can be a deeper, fuller, richer version. Nor do they do their homework and find it. They just buy into the cheap charicatures in the movies, and notice the sensationalist headlines in the news, and that's it.

It's also very hard for those raised in fundamentalism to come out of it, it's a bit jarring to flip world views, and for some it's disillusioning. Some are stuck in the belief that if their literal religion isn't true, then none of it is true, and they throw out the baby with the bath water. They never bother to talk to or try to understand how other Christians think.

I believe there is a certain amount of authoritarianism in the SBC having studied church doctrine at Bible study. When I expressed a different belief the concept was that I was speaking against the Bible as though there was only one interpretation that was correct. I have witnessed the JW's do the same thing no matter how dumb their interpretations are.

 

[Muffled]

I ama Scandinavian, and even if I am sure you will recoil at hearing that, i tell you that we abort fetuses screened for genetic diseases. In Denmark it is a 98% of all fetuses with the Down Syndrom. I believe Germany is not so far away.

The law actually allows abortion after the standard time limit in case of detected genetic diseases.

I know it is controversial, but that is the way it is. Whether you like it or not. And honestly, hearing moral suggestions from people who believe that absolute morality comes from books that accept slavery and the killing of healthy children, is like being accused of antisemitism by a nazi.

So, if you do not like it AND you believe in the effectivity of prayer, then I can only recommend that you pray that North European women stop doing that. We can check how effective that is.

So, I am sre that if prayer were effective, then there would be less abortions. But it is not, obviously. It is like talking to the wind.

For what concerns siamese twins, it is obvious that they are cured if possible. Surgeons do that all the time, and when one is successful everyone is happy and sometimes they even praise the local God (instead of the surgeons for some reason).

And I don’t know you. But if I shared a brain with my twin sister and I glorified God (also for some reason) I would give it a try with a prayer.

Wouldn’t you?

I think you are angry because you know very well that prayer effectivity is a fantasy.

Ciao

- viole

I believe one reason for murdering children is as bad as any other.

 

[viole]

As a friend to you, the difference between us is I ask God, and do so more based on how big the button is. I WANT a President, for example, who asks God before he dares to press some nuclear button or pardon some criminal! If only we had leaders who love God!

Ok, you don’t to answer. Undestandably.

By the way. Do you want a president that makes decisions based on what imaginary beings might think?

Ciao

- viole

 

[OtherSheep]

Are these people actually seriously damaging the work of Christ and turning people away from God?

I believe that when you're down on your knees and you finally cry out: God help me, that God will respond to that first step of yours by taking the other nine steps towards you. Then and only then will you know God is really there. As a reality. And the rest of your existence will be absorbing the complete understanding that faith is safely letting God take over completely. Imo

In any faith or place or time.

But we have to ask first.

Depends on what you consider to be the definition of Christian. IMHO, the title revolves around Saul of Tarsus, since they were first called that where Saul completely separated the people who followed his gospel ... from the gospel to the circumcision which Peter taught.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Ok, you don’t to answer. Undestandably.

By the way. Do you want a president that makes decisions based on what imaginary beings might think?

Ciao

- viole

I don't want a President who is deluded, and listens to imaginary beings. I appreciate a President who claims to worship God, the more so if he or she has a testimony about their relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[viole]

I don't want a President who is deluded, and listens to imaginary beings. I appreciate a President who claims to worship God, the more so if he or she has a testimony about their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Do you have a personal relationship with God?

If yes, could you please ask Him how old the earth is, for starters, and have that settled....at least among you guys speaking with Him all the time.

Ciao

- viole