Is Bible literal young earth Christian fundamentalism turning people away from God?

[ERLOS]

Yes. The focus isn't on some spooky idea about the authority of God but rather on how one comes to a conclusion in the first place...

My question isn't facetious. If you I told you that the only way you could truly understand something was to first admit that it exists, and then understand it is preeminent and capable of "appearing" to you, and then told you that once you bought into all those things that the thing itself would better present itself to you, would that actually help persuade you to follow it?

Would that work if I was talking about an Old Earth?
Or Zeus?
Or Men From Jupiter?
Or Purple Flying Manatees?

Like YEC ideas, your assertion that someone has to cry out to God for help before God will take 9 steps in their direction may make sense to you as someone who is already convinced of your position. But it's bonkers to people who aren't. It's bad rationalization.

Like my quote, "Once you convince yourself, the Universe falls into place...", you're saying that once I accept something as true, then it appears true. Well... yeah...obviously... But that doesn't make it so.

I'm sure there are other faiths or ideas that you find unacceptable and unbelievable, right? You have to recognize that your theological position is in that same category for other people are well. The only measure of how true or accurate something is comes from the substantiating and supporting data that goes along with it. God, for example, is a personalized mystical experience, as you've already said. YEC, on the other hand, is a completely bogus scientific claim that has nothing supporting it other than misguided theology. They're two very separate things.

I don't believe in one. I wholly reject the other.

But what makes you think I care what you believe or that I'm trying to persuade you to believe anything? What makes you think God has to follow your own rational analyses of what God should be? It's a silly roundabout which just keeps turning: I think this, you think that. I'm not at all interested in trying to change the way you think. Why are you so interested in changing the way I think?

One fact remains: no-one can prove God doesn't exist. It's not a subject of maths or science, etc. You believe there's no higher intelligence in the universe than man. I believe there is.

So what's the point? Why are you so eager to correct my thinking to conform with yours?

This goes for most atheist positions here. God isn't a game of logic for smart intellectuals to play at. Whatever.

 

[Earthling]

Are these people actually seriously damaging the work of Christ and turning people away from God?

I believe that when you're down on your knees and you finally cry out: God help me, that God will respond to that first step of yours by taking the other nine steps towards you. Then and only then will you know God is really there. As a reality. And the rest of your existence will be absorbing the complete understanding that faith is safely letting God take over completely. Imo

In any faith or place or time.

But we have to ask first.

I'm not sure what the text message has to do with the subject heading, but to answer the subject heading, I think it's partially true. It seams to me, with a big bold IMHO, that most Christians are Christians only in name, and due to familial, cultural, traditional and most importantly, social reasons. They may but into the tradition and social or cultural value but not really the teachings or even faith.

The idea that all you have to do is get down on your knees and cry out to God for help and he will meet you half way may sound nice but it don't hold up in scripture. Moses, after all, didn't make it to the promised land. He only saw it. And Jesus said people would do powerful works in his name but he never knew them.

You have to understand and appreciate what the promise is, and what comes along with it. The most important aspect of the culmination of which, is not the salvation of mankind and the planet earth, but rather, Jehovah God's sovereignty.

 

[ERLOS]

If God is omniscient then that can't be right. Instead [he] knew everything I was ever going to think, say and do before [he] made the universe. And if [he]'s not omniscient then [he]'s not omnipotent, since an omnipotent being lacking omniscience can become omniscient with a snap of the omnipotent fingers, yes?
I'm a materialist, but only after a long hard look at the alternatives. All believers seem to know something I don't, not least what a real god, one with objective existence, one not imaginary, is ─ though it's not very reassuring that they can't agree on that among themselves.
You can't claim God exists outside of imagination in the face of the fact that [he]'s never found anywhere else, can you?

Adressing your last paragraph: I can and I do. How can you address a complete stranger you've never met and tell me my own experience with the divine is imaginary? Just because you believe it has to be?

 

[jonathan180iq]

But what makes you think I care what you believe or that I'm trying to persuade you to believe anything?

You started a thread and I participated in answering the questions that you asked.
Isn't that how conversations work?

What makes you think God has to follow your own rational analyses of what God should be?

The same thing that makes you think he/she/it doesn't. Life follows a set of pretty obvious parameters. You can give an external entity qualities beyond those parameters, but without a reason for doing so, you're blurring the line between philosophical conversation and wild imagination.

It's a silly roundabout which just keeps turning: I think this, you think that. I'm not at all interested in trying to change the way you think. Why are you so interested in changing the way I think?

I'm not interested in changing the way you think. I'm talking to you about a topic that you posted and that I have some thoughts on.

Getting offended is easy. Asking interesting follow-up questions, and giving some answers, is more fun though.

One fact remains: no-one can prove God doesn't exist.

It's convenient how that works with all things "supernatural", don't you think?

It's not a subject of maths or science, etc. You believe there's no higher intelligence in the universe than man. I believe there is.

Awesome.

Do you believe that Young Earth Creationism is a substantiated world view?
Do you believe that it pushes people away from the faith?
Do you believe that modern Earth Sciences can reveal neat things about the past that previous man was unaware of?

So what's the point?

Open dialogue and conversation...

Might I remind you, this is your thread.

Why are you so eager to correct my thinking to conform with yours?

I'm not trying to do that.
I don't feel like you debate your own positions that often.

This goes for most atheist positions here. God isn't a game of logic for smart intellectuals to play at. Whatever.

Right.
You see god as something revealed to you through a personal experience. Afterall, who am I to tell you that what you've experienced in your life isn't divine intervention?
I'm no one; Just some a$$hole on the internet.

But surely you have thoughts and opinions about the other religions of the world, right?
There are some beliefs that you're aware of, but simply cannot support or comprehend.
There have to be gods that you've read about but don't believe in - maybe even some that are worshiped in your own neighborhood or community? Do you not use logic, or reason, or intellectual thought experiments when thinking about those things?

 

[ERLOS]

I'm not sure what the text message has to do with the subject heading, but to answer the subject heading, I think it's partially true. It seams to me, with a big bold IMHO, that most Christians are Christians only in name, and due to familial, cultural, traditional and most importantly, social reasons. They may but into the tradition and social or cultural value but not really the teachings or even faith.

The idea that all you have to do is get down on your knees and cry out to God for help and he will meet you half way may sound nice but it don't hold up in scripture. Moses, after all, didn't make it to the promised land. He only saw it. And Jesus said people would do powerful works in his name but he never knew them.

You have to understand and appreciate what the promise is, and what comes along with it. The most important aspect of the culmination of which, is not the salvation of mankind and the planet earth, but rather, Jehovah God's sovereignty.

Perhaps.

But I believe all scripture is intended to lead the reader to direct encounter with the divine. If this doesn't happen there'd be no point in going on. Scripture is the shell of the nut. Imo

 

[ERLOS]

You started a thread and I participated in answering the questions that you asked.
Isn't that how conversations work?


The same thing that makes you think he/she/it doesn't. Life follows a set of pretty obvious parameters. You can give an external entity qualities beyond those parameters, but without a reason for doing so, you're blurring the line between philosophical conversation and wild imagination.


I'm not interested in changing the way you think. I'm talking to you about a topic that you posted and that I have some thoughts on.

Getting offended is easy. Asking interesting follow-up questions, and giving some answers, is more fun though.


It's convenient how that works with all things "supernatural", don't you think?


Awesome.

Do you believe that Young Earth Creationism is a substantiated world view?
Do you believe that it pushes people away from the faith?
Do you believe that modern Earth Sciences can reveal neat things about the past that previous man was unaware of?


Open dialogue and conversation...

Might I remind you, this is your thread.


I'm not trying to do that.
I don't feel like you debate your own positions that often.


Right.
You see god as something revealed to you through a personal experience. Afterall, who am I to tell you that what you've experienced in your life isn't divine intervention?
I'm no one; Just some a$$hole on the internet.

But surely you have thoughts and opinions about the other religions of the world, right?
There are some beliefs that you're aware of, but simply cannot support or comprehend.
There have to be gods that you've read about but don't believe in - maybe even some that are worshiped in your own neighborhood or community? Do you not use logic, or reason, or intellectual thought experiments when thinking about those things?

I'm really not going to spend all night answering your text point by point. I don't care what God anyone wants to worship. If it works for them, God is there. You can't prove string theory because it's not proveable. But it can't be disproved. There's a sense of rebellion against authority. That's what I'm saying. Why this all absorbing interest in discussing and dissecting this God you don't believe in on religious websites.

 

[ERLOS]

You started a thread and I participated in answering the questions that you asked.
Isn't that how conversations work?


The same thing that makes you think he/she/it doesn't. Life follows a set of pretty obvious parameters. You can give an external entity qualities beyond those parameters, but without a reason for doing so, you're blurring the line between philosophical conversation and wild imagination.


I'm not interested in changing the way you think. I'm talking to you about a topic that you posted and that I have some thoughts on.

Getting offended is easy. Asking interesting follow-up questions, and giving some answers, is more fun though.


It's convenient how that works with all things "supernatural", don't you think?


Awesome.

Do you believe that Young Earth Creationism is a substantiated world view?
Do you believe that it pushes people away from the faith?
Do you believe that modern Earth Sciences can reveal neat things about the past that previous man was unaware of?


Open dialogue and conversation...

Might I remind you, this is your thread.


I'm not trying to do that.
I don't feel like you debate your own positions that often.


Right.
You see god as something revealed to you through a personal experience. Afterall, who am I to tell you that what you've experienced in your life isn't divine intervention?
I'm no one; Just some a$$hole on the internet.

But surely you have thoughts and opinions about the other religions of the world, right?
There are some beliefs that you're aware of, but simply cannot support or comprehend.
There have to be gods that you've read about but don't believe in - maybe even some that are worshiped in your own neighborhood or community? Do you not use logic, or reason, or intellectual thought experiments when thinking about those things?

Sorry. I actually don't mean to sound rude. But every time I post anything the atheists queue up demanding I have to answer that and explain that. It's exhausting. And I don't have to answer or explain anything really. It's my own personal belief. I don't have open every sentence with IMO do I? It's personal.belief. In fact its direct personal exprience of the divine.

It's not ridiculous. I can't prove it in material terms, especially not in words. But you can't DISPROVE it, so we should zgree to differ. Instead you feel the need to harry and nip at my ankles every sentence and phrase. Sorry; I just can't do this. Have fun with your discussion people.

...Life follows a set of pretty obvious parameters...

No it does not. Quantum mechanics and relativity, for instnce, are anything but obvious. And 96% is in dark energy and matter. I really enjoy and enthusiastically follow all science advances in my layman capacity.

We piped but you would not dance.

(Incidentally I'm not running away in defeat. I just really haven't the energy to argue and discuss even word and phrase of every post, ok?)

(Post edited)

 

[Earthling]

Perhaps.

But I believe all scripture is intended to lead the reader to direct encounter with the divine. If this doesn't happen there'd be no point in going on. Scripture is the shell of the nut. Imo

Well, that's interesting. [Edit: For some reason I thought you were the guy with the Popeye avatar. i don't know how I confused Popeye with Linus, but I did. ]

What exactly is "direct encounter with the divine?" What is the point, how do you see it taking place?

If you mean coming face to face with God, I would say no, not going to happen. If you are talking about voices in your head and him causing you to win the lottery, again, no. If you mean living with him in paradise earth, the new system, then that maybe I could see. If you mean metaphorically, as in knowing him well enough by scripture study, then I can see that as well.

 

[ERLOS]

Well, that's interesting. [Edit: For some reason I thought you were the guy with the Popeye avatar. i don't know how I confused Popeye with Linus, but I did. ]

What exactly is "direct encounter with the divine?" What is the point, how do you see it taking place?

If you mean coming face to face with God, I would say no, not going to happen. If you are talking about voices in your head and him causing you to win the lottery, again, no. If you mean living with him in paradise earth, the new system, then that maybe I could see. If you mean metaphorically, as in knowing him well enough by scripture study, then I can see that as well.

Lol. Ok I'll converse with you. I hope you have had an experience of the divine. God helps us in this world too. Imo. God/angels guide my steps all the time. Prov 3: 1-10. Core philosophy.

I'm Catholic, you're JW. That's fine, God is there for you and there for me. For everybody, when they really need (him). God knows what's going on.

My Linus thing is about the security blanket. We should be able to let go of cherished (dogma) beliefs and grow in adult knowledge. Something like that, lol.
Best regards

(edited)

 

[Earthling]

Lol. Ok I'll converse with you. I hope you have had an experience of the divine. God helps us in this world too. Imo. God/angels guide my steps all the time. Prov 3: 1-10. Core philosophy.

I'm Catholic, you're JW. That's fine, God is there for you and there for me. For everybody, when they really need (him). God knows what's going on.

My Linus thing is about the security blanket. We should be able to let go of cherished (dogma) beliefs and grow in adult knowledge. Something like that, lol.
Best regards

(edited)

When I was a kid I wrote to Charles M. Schultz and he sent me a drawing of, I think it was Charlie Brown, but my favorite was always Linus. Linus was the laid back one of the bunch but at the same time would stand up for injustice or the underdog.

By the way, I 'm not actually a JW, I just believe in much of the same beliefs. Not all. Just most of it.

 

[Mox]

Hope we survive more or less intact.

Precisely.

 

[Earthling]

Precisely.

Precisely what?

 

[Mox]

Precisely what?

Precisely that.

 

[Earthling]

Precisely that.

Ah! I see.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I think being ridiculously anti-scientific can turn people away from God.
Referring to Genesis Abdul-Baha states;

"Notwithstanding this, we read in Genesis in the Old Testament that the lifetime of creation is but six thousand years. This has an inner meaning and significance; it is not to be taken literally. For instance it is said in the Old Testament that certain things were created in the first day. The narrative shows that at that time the sun was not yet created. How could we conceive of a day if no sun existed in the heavens; for the day depends upon the light of the sun? Inasmuch as the sun had not been made, how could the first day be realized? Therefore these statements have significances other than literal."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 108)

To me that is where people misunderstand the Bible right at the beginning assuming it to be a literal tale. In this they diverge from science on too many levels.

I think that the 6,000 year idea is obviously not true. The book of Genesis was for a very long time an oral tradition that was passed around at the fire side. And for so much of what the Creator calls us to the factual truth of the Bible is not relevant.

 

[Earthling]

I think that the 6,000 year idea is obviously not true. The book of Genesis was for a very long time an oral tradition that was passed around at the fire side. And for so much of what the Creator calls us to the factual truth of the Bible is not relevant.

Or, it's just misunderstood. Check out my Genesis Chapter 1 commentary

 

[Ellen Brown]

Or, it's just misunderstood. Check out my Genesis Chapter 1 commentary

I started reading it and it is interesting. Thank you.

My own opinion about the last 200,000 years is that religious documents are just catching the last several thousand years. It is clear to me, that satan is very active in causing torment and chaos in the Creation. The book of Job starts with that. Later In Luke 22 is another very clear illustration. We don't know how there could be a war in Heaven, and a third of the Angels were cast down, along with satan, and he could still have a voice with the Creator. That is about as clear to me as my siblings and I sitting in the car in the 1950s, while my mother and her boyfriend went in to have beer, and that being acceptable.

There is good Archaeological evidence of there being an organized civilization as far back as 170,000 years. For me, the most grievous error of human history is that the religious and scientific community are barely on speaking terms. Huumans are failing to understand so much because of this.

 

[Earthling]

I started reading it and it is interesting. Thank you.

My own opinion about the last 200,000 years is that religious documents are just catching the last several thousand years. It is clear to me, that satan is very active in causing torment and chaos in the Creation. The book of Job starts with that. Later In Luke 22 is another very clear illustration. We don't know how there could be a war in Heaven, and a third of the Angels were cast down, along with satan, and he could still have a voice with the Creator. That is about as clear to me as my siblings and I sitting in the car in the 1950s, while my mother and her boyfriend went in to have beer, and that being acceptable.

The war in heaven was long after Job, and long after Christ's brief stay of 33 1/2 years on earth.

There is good Archaeological evidence of there being an organized civilization as far back as 170,000 years. For me, the most grievous error of human history is that the religious and scientific community are barely on speaking terms. Huumans are failing to understand so much because of this.

The religious and scientific community need not be on speaking terms, it isn't necessary, and such good Archaeological evidence has been discounted before.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It has divided Christianity since beginning in the Voltaire age of enlightenment. What all Christians must face up to is that the Church Fathers and/or authors of the gospels.believed in the literal interpretation of Genesis....

I think it is not the case with church fathers across the board because of the loose usages of terms taken from Genesis, and I think I heard of one saying it was not literally a description of the world. You also should take into account the gospel of John which is itself an example of a creation epic describing something other than the physical world. When, however, Hebrew scripture gets translated into lay languages like Latin or English then I think lay people become fervently interested in the creation epic, and this popular fervor becomes a fad.

 

[blü 2]

Adressing your last paragraph: I can and I do. How can you address a complete stranger you've never met and tell me my own experience with the divine is imaginary? Just because you believe it has to be?

Do you mean that your 'experience with the divine' is an encounter with someone or something real, external to your self, such that you can in principle take a video or recording of it, and show us what you experienced?

Or was it all internal, the workings of your brain and its emotions, so that no source other than yourself can be shown for it?