Is Brahman and Nirvana the same?? Is the goal the same??

[Shuddhasattva]

Okay let me ask one last question, Emptiness is not static, right, it's flux?

Wu.

Emptiness is non-described, ineffable; crossfire used a very good alternate word; traceless.

It is without constituent components, and without processes, substances, or properties.

It is not restricted to either static or flux. It is not demarcated into this or that.

You may wish to look up the catuskoti; the fourfold negation of Nagarjuna also indulged in by Gaudapada.

This is the non-position of shunya, the ninth and extinctive view, and may use apoha as an appendage but is certainly not restricted thereto in its meaning.

 

[DanielR]

This was givin to me when I confused emptiness with an experience I had during Zazen. . Hope it helps you as well. :0)

that was helpful, thanks, when I think of Sunyata I always think of some kind of essence or Absolute, it's really difficult

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm not sure this is descriptive of shunya so much as anatman, and specifically, a particular type of Indian/Buddhist logic called "apoha."

Nothing as fancy as that. ;0)

 

[DanielR]

Can I say that because of perception (I guess avidya), we see things in the wrong way, not how they really are, would that be true, I know that Sunyata cannot be explained by words, but would this be an approximation?

 

[George-ananda]

The universe is only one. Truth is only one. Buddhism, Hinduism etc. provide valid paths to the truth. So ultimately Nirvana=Brahman is true. The same goal looked at from two similar paths/perspectives.

 

[atanu]

The universe is only one. Truth is only one. Buddhism, Hinduism etc. provide valid paths to the truth. So ultimately Nirvana=Brahman is true. The same goal looked at from two similar paths/perspectives.

I agree. One cannot go beyond whatever is. Rest is mental speculation.

 

[crossfire]

The universe is only one. Truth is only one. Buddhism, Hinduism etc. provide valid paths to the truth.

Buddhism, Greek philosophy, Jewish philosophy, and ancient Egyptians all recognize Two Truths Doctrine.

So ultimately Nirvana=Brahman is true.

Perhaps according to Hinduism, but not according to Buddhism. Nibbana is beyond concepts.

The same goal looked at from two similar paths/perspectives.

I'm not sure if the goals of each are the same, either.

 

[atanu]

Buddhism, Greek philosophy, Jewish philosophy, and ancient Egyptians all recognize Two Truths Doctrine.

Perhaps according to Hinduism, but not according to Buddhism. Nibbana is beyond concepts.

I'm not sure if the goals of each are the same, either.

He he.

 

[DanielR]

I've found a very good video where Thich Nhat Hanh explains emptiness, I love him, especially the last minute or so of the vid was informative, now I know why it's called 'empty'.

Emptiness - YouTube

 

[Jainarayan]

Seeing a cloud in the newspaper! "Inter-being", "inter-are", "inter-is". I love it.

 

[Jainarayan]

especially the last minute or so of the vid was informative, now I know why it's called 'empty'.

Beginning @ 8:20 sums it up.

 

[George-ananda]

Perhaps according to Hinduism, but not according to Buddhism. Nibbana is beyond concepts.

They're both (Nibbana and Brahman/Moksha) ultimately beyond concepts. Teachers have to use words to point us to that which is beyond our ability to conceptualize.

 

[ratikala]

They're both (Nibbana and Brahman/Moksha) ultimately beyond concepts. Teachers have to use words to point us to that which is beyond our ability to conceptualize.

agreed :namaste, concidering also that there is difference in conception even amongst hindu as to what is brahman , what is moksha , then it is required to strip away all conception , in which case one has found that which is ultimately beyond name .

 

[apophenia]

Originally Posted by George-ananda
They're both (Nibbana and Brahman/Moksha) ultimately beyond concepts. Teachers have to use words to point us to that which is beyond our ability to conceptualize.

agreed :namaste, concidering also that there is difference in conception even amongst hindu as to what is brahman , what is moksha , then it is required to strip away all conception , in which case one has found that which is ultimately beyond name .

I would add that this 'stripping away' is not an intellectual process, it is an act of surrender, where the mundane mind is no longer actively engaged as the center of attention.

There is also a 'stripping away' which takes place in, and as, intellectual activity, as the mind is gradually transformed by the effects of surrender. The results of this process include our concepts of nirvana and brahman.

Eventually, this intellectual process exhausts itself. No concept can 'sum up' the nature we may call 'being'.

 

[Twilight Hue]

that was helpful, thanks, when I think of Sunyata I always think of some kind of essence or Absolute, it's really difficult

Thats because intelluctualizing after a point leads one away from that which can be observed and experienced.

When we think of essence or absolute there is an "object" there. Something constructed to be permanent by way it's perceived to be.

Experiences and observations allows perfect understanding without thinking in terms of the absolute. That gives way to a clear understanding of emptiness.

 

[ratikala]

namaste shuddhasattva ji ,

not quite sure that I understand this ?prehaps it is simply choise of words ?

Shunya is mahamaya; mahamaya is illusory illusoriness is brahman.

shunya ?
mahamaya , great illusion , great majic , ..... the principle divinity , prepetuator of phenominal existance . thus mahamaya is the creator samsara . or the creator of the illusion which is samsara , .........and shunyata ; the absence of illusion .

shunyata ; emptiness of phenomena or phenominal existance , libberation , moksha , brahman , ..... yes :namaste

Maya = not this. Compare neti and nirguna, and also the practice of self-inquiry with the essential identity of Pusan-Hiranyagarbha (Yogeshvara) in the Ved; 'Ka.'

Eternal ignorance is not.

maya ; .... the illusion of phenominal existance ,
moksha ; ..... freedom from ignorance , freedom from ilusion , libberation from phenominal existance .:namaste


which unfortunately cano't be reduced to mere words , as mere words are subject to the missinturpretations of the mind ,

in my most humble opinion .

 

[DanielR]

could someone help me with this question out?

Okay, I can see how I am dependent on the Universe and the cosmos and everything around me, but how is the Universe dependent on me, because of my observation??

thanks

 

[aewbarnes]

In answer to the basic question in the OP, I offer that Nirvana and Brahman are different as for me nirvana is a state of emersion in Brahman.
Brahman is everything and in order to have overcome all false perception to fully achieve awareness of Brahman is to be in Nirvana. Whilst not spatial, Nirvana then is a 'place to be' from which awareness of Brahman can be experienced.

 

[ratikala]

dear prabhi ji

beg your pardon I missed your post ,

I would add that this 'stripping away' is not an intellectual process, it is an act of surrender, where the mundane mind is no longer actively engaged as the center of attention.

There is also a 'stripping away' which takes place in, and as, intellectual activity, as the mind is gradually transformed by the effects of surrender. The results of this process include our concepts of nirvana and brahman.

I am generaly not talking about the interlectual process , with any luck the mundane mind remains at the door with the shoes

when I say striping away it comes from the intence desire to reside in a state free from mundane concerns ,(including concerns of the self)

there is also what I might describe as a falling away , much like what you describe as the efects of surrender which to me came when I realised that the interlect was self limiting .
I say falling away , as I tend to feel that there are stages we outgrow that we simply shed our old ways of seeing as a snake sheds its skin .

Eventually, this intellectual process exhausts itself. No concept can 'sum up' the nature we may call 'being'.

jai jai ,

we simply outgrow it , ..... and providing we are not attatched to it we accknoweledge its usefullness and move on :namaste

 

[Bhairava]

Kashmir Shaivism Teachings

Turya or turiya is known as enlightenment. This link describes the 7 stages of turya aka enlightenment.