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Is Brahman and Nirvana the same?? Is the goal the same??

I learnt from achcyutananda swami that the nirvanist achieve merging into the garbhodakashayi ocean beyond lokaloka (beyond jambuvipa or bhu-mandala).

and that the sunyavadis merge into the brahmajyoti effulgence.

Of course there in mention in the gitas of the un-successful yogi that, after enjoying the fruits of good karma amongst vast life times in the celestial higher planetary systems (of the devas), when the fruitive good karma (karma-kanda) is expended, such a yogi retruns to the terrestrial planetary systems to engage in fruitive goals yet again.
If such yogis had continued to be thoughtfull and adverse to doing bad-karmic activities, they may be lucky enough to resume the yogi path again. This is how samsara and karma can be so impersonal.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
I learnt from achcyutananda swami that the nirvanist achieve merging into the garbhodakashayi ocean beyond lokaloka (beyond jambuvipa or bhu-mandala).

and that the sunyavadis merge into the brahmajyoti effulgence.

Can you express that in secular language ? ( I know it is difficult, but it can be instructive).

What is 'the garbhodakashayi ocean', and what is 'the brahmajyoti effulgence' ?

Can you possibly express that in terms other than other 'scriptural terms' ?

What do those terms refer to, in your own words ?
 
Can you express that in secular language ? ( I know it is difficult, but it can be instructive).
What is 'the garbhodakashayi ocean', and what is 'the brahmajyoti effulgence' ?
Can you possibly express that in terms other than other 'scriptural terms' ?
What do those terms refer to, in your own words ?
Can you express that in secular language ? ( I know it is difficult, but it can be instructive).

What is 'the garbhodakashayi ocean'
I learnt from Mr. Achyuta swami that the nirvana seekers of buddhism achieve merging into the garbhodakashayi ocean beyond Loka-loka Mountain ridge at the perimeter edges of bhu-mandala .

Bhu-mandala is a disc shaped geographical flat area of earth (not this planet Earth) that exists at the bottom of the universe. At the rim of the perimeter is an extremely high ring of continuous mountain ridge known as Loka-loka. This earthern 'sand-bar' island is surrounded by water, just beyond the perimeter the Loka-loka mountain ridge.

That water is known as garbhodakashayi ocean.

Long before the Bhu-mandala formed before all the planets were created, garbhodakashayi Vishnu (God's expansion here in the Material world) layed down on this ocean surface gave birth to Brahma. The first born Deva and progenitor of all the Devas (demigods) and all species and mechanics of universal structures. That is why Brahma is called the engineer of the Universe.

The entire universe with all it's planets etc exist within the hollow of a sphere known as a Brahmanda (brahma+anda). Anda in sanskrit means egg.

The hollow area in the brahmanda is where we are all situated.
We are on a floating orb in this space within the Brahmanda's core.

The core is half filled with water. That water is known as the garbhodakashayi ocean.

Mr Achyuta-nand Swami told me that when the nirvana student reaches perfection, their soul reposes into a state of nirvana and that this nirvana resulted in the soul taking refuge in that primevial 'causal-ocean' known as the garbhodakashayi ocean.

In all cases I have been referring to geographical loctions that are mapped out in the Vedas.

Before you dismiss things that can not be seen with the naked eye nor seen with giant telescopes, remember that a Jumbo Airplane can be high in the sky and yet seem invisable. Even if telescopes are used the telescope still has a limited range. The distances mentioned in the Vedas about the size of the Universe leave the observer as a tiny grain of sand in a cosmic ocean.

What is 'the brahmajyoti effulgence' ?

And that the sunyavadis merge into the brahmajyoti effulgence.

The brahmajyoti effulgence is the shining light of God's Face-body-smile-energy-personality-splendor.

The entire creation, the spiritual eternal kingdom of God and the present material transcient universe eminates from God's Body.

The spiritual realm where God is King and Lord and Master and benefactor is eternal. Eternality is a shining feature of God's definition.

The shining light of God's Person is the well known destination of the Yogis and Hindu ascetics, the destination of the Yogis and Hindu ascetics who do not seek nor believe in the devotional service to Godhead.

Excluded from the above non-theist Yogis and Hindu ascetics are the adherents of the 'karma kanda' sections of Hindu scripture. The 'karma kanda' sections of Hindu scripture are about achieving 'desirables' so that Fruitive endeavors are always the pursuit of 'karma kanda' hindus.

This is the essence of the Bhagavad-gita's message for Theists.

When Krishna uses the words "Unsuccessful Yogi", Krishna is referring to those that achieved celestial rewards and also to the Yogi that merged into the Brahmajyoti or and any type of nirvana like state.

Since the the Bhagavad-gita defines that the 'Soul is alway active by nature', it is affirmed by Krishna that the soul cannot say desireless indefiniately, so the soul will returns to the world of fruitive activity inorder to enjoy sense pleasure as a means of living, instead of remaining in a dormant inert quasi-sleep state commonly known as nirvana.

Of course there in mention in the gitas of the un-successful yogi that, after enjoying the fruits of good karma amongst vast life times in the celestial higher planetary systems (of the devas), when the fruitive good karma (karma-kanda) is expended, such a yogi retruns to the terrestrial planetary systems to engage in fruitive goals yet again.
If such yogis had continued to be thoughtfull and adverse to doing bad-karmic activities, they may be lucky enough to resume the yogi path again. This is how samsara and karma can be so impersonal.

Here is the actual verse.
Bg 6.41
The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy.

As A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami then explains, the unsuccessful yogis are divided into two classes: one is fallen after very little progress, and one is fallen after long practice of yoga. The yogi who falls after a short period of practice goes to the higher planets, where pious living entities are allowed to enter. After prolonged life there, one is sent back again to this planet, to take birth in the family of a righteous brahmana vaishnava (Hindu Theists) or of aristocratic merchants.
The real purpose of yoga practice is to achieve the highest perfection of God consciousness, as explained in the last verse of this chapter. But those who do not persevere to such an extent and who fail because of material allurements are allowed, by the grace of the Lord, to make full utilization of their material propensities. And after that, they are given opportunities to live prosperous lives in righteous or aristocratic families. Those who are born in such families may take advantage of the facilities and try to elevate themselves to full God consciousness.
Can you possibly express that in terms other than other 'scriptural terms' ?

"Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail." Bg 8.6

IMOW, You can be what ever you dream you can be.
There are two state of affairs. The Service of Godhead in God's eternal abode, and "Being all you can be" with what ever karma you can get, birth after birth.

What do those terms refer to, in your own words?
You get what you work for. Whatever is strived for with great singleminded endeavor will reap one's desires. But during down time and casual times bad karmic acts can seep into a person's life and work. It is this willy-nilly up and down roller coaster of acts, along with in-direct karmic acts, that confuses and confounds people.

The material world allows for twisted chain of events to occur.

As the Gita advises, we must escape karmic pay-back and transcend it's influence, and that traditionally is done by Observing the RULES OF GOOD KARMA, becoming a secular or ascetic nirvana monk, or a secular servant of God or an ascetic theist monk.
 

chinu

chinu
Is realizing Brahman and reaching Nirvana really the same? On another forum Taobums if I might say that, there was a heated discussion on whether realising Brahman in Hinduism and reaching Nirvana in Buddhism is really the same.

A guy there posted a link : Awakening to Reality: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

that explains seven stages to Nirvana I guess, according to that link, Brahman is a step on the way but not the Endgoal? Is that actually true, or is there really no difference??

Sorry, for posting that many threads, I hope that's okay, I'm trying to identify with something lol
Yes, Brahman is a step on the way but not the endgoal, to which most of the hindus are unknown. :)
 

chinu

chinu
It may interest you to know (if you didn't already) that Sikhism uses "sunn" (ਸੁੰਨ) to describe God in its writings, so I think your view works. :)

[spoiler="Religious Quotes]
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸੁੰਨੰ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁੰਨੰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਸੁੰਨੰ ॥ The absolute Lord is deep within; the absolute Lord is outside us as well. The absolute Lord totally fills the three worlds. - Page 943

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ One who knows the mystery of God the Absolute, who pervades each and every heart, - Page 943

ਸੁੰਨਹਿ ਸੁੰਨੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਪਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੧॥ Merging my being into the Absolute Being of God, I have become impartial and transparent, like the air. ||1|| - Page 1103

[/spoiler]

"Tati vao na lagee, jo mere paar brahman sharnai " -Guru Granth Sahib ji

Means: Sorrows cannot touch the one who came into my shelter in "Paar Brahman" (Above Brahman)

"Paar" means above which very clearly means that there's somthing above brahman. :)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Yes, Brahman is a step on the way but not the endgoal, to which most of the hindus are unknown. :)

"Tati vao na lagee, jo mere paar brahman sharnai " -Guru Granth Sahib ji
Means: Sorrows cannot touch the one who came into my shelter in "Paar Brahman" (Above Brahman)
"Paar" means above which very clearly means that there's somthing above brahman. :)

:D
Chinu do you know par par brahman? I know.
 
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chinu

chinu


While in one of his talks krishna explaind arjuna that this creation is like a inverted tree where the place of brahman is at the trunk of the tree.:)
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I would not place them as equal. Brahman is god in his impersonal form. He encompasses all things and withholds the universe itself with his immeasurable palms.
Nirvana is a state of mind which is the enlightenment of peace and serenity. It is essentially a subdivision of Moksha or heaven as Christians would say. They are similar but heavily differ according to sect while Buddhism has a concept that even differs with mainstream Hindus.

Some say that reaching Moksha is the actual reuniting with Brahman while others say they two are distinctly separate when you achieve moksha which is more closer to my personal perception.
 

chinu

chinu
Can you show this from Gita or from elsewhere?
As you belong to india, So.. i think you might be aware of famous TV serial "Mahabharta". At the time of war between kaurva and pandvas "Shri Krishna" said all this to "Arjuna" (That i watched in that TV serial too ) I think you must watch that serial again.

Thus.. Am not sure, but i think that the related verses must be in gita.:)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
While in one of his talks krishna explaind arjuna that this creation is like a inverted tree where the place of brahman is at the trunk of the tree.:)

Can you show this from Gita or from elsewhere?

As you belong to india, So.. i think you might be aware of famous TV serial "Mahabharta". At the time of war between kaurva and pandvas "Shri Krishna" said all this to "Arjuna" (That i watched in that TV serial too ) I think you must watch that serial again.

Thus.. Am not sure, but i think that the related verses must be in gita.:)

So, you wish that I should go by a TV serial? :no:

The inverted tree is samsara, which has to be uprooted by non-attachment/dispassion. The verses of Gita does not say that the place of Brahman is in the middle of the tree. I have pasted the relevant verses below. The same verses are also present in Mundka Upanishad.

Gita Chapter 15

1. They (the wise) speak of the indestructible peepul tree, having its root above and branches below, whose leaves are the metres or hymns; he who knows it is a knower of the Vedas.

2. Below and above spread its branches, nourished by the Gunas; sense-objects are its buds; and below in the world of men stretch forth the roots, originating action.

3. Its form is not perceived here as such, neither its end nor its origin, nor its foundation nor resting place; having cut asunder this firmly-rooted peepul tree with the strong axe of non-attachment,

4. Then that goal should be sought after, whither having gone none returns again. Seek refuge in that Primeval Purusha whence streamed forth the ancient activity or energy.

............

I hope you are not suggesting that we must uproot Brahman? As, Gita suggests that the tree must be uprooted.:)
 
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