Is Calling Muhammad a Pedophile Islamophobic?

[gsa]

According to an article that I read recently, yes. Although the hadith collection that documents Aisha's age at consummation being 9 is regarded as authentic by most Sunnis, the article casts doubt on its authenticity:

In addition, some modern Muslim scholars have more recently cast doubt on the veracity of the saying, or hadith, used to assert Aisha’s young age. In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur’an. While the Qur’an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha’s age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.

Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur’an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad’s actions reflect the Qur’an’s teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.

Yet Muslim apologists do not seem to be taken with this view, instead focusing on historic age of consent to marriage. Presumably, because rejecting the hadith collections represents a problem as well.

The problem is that there is no good way of dealing with Aisha. The age of consummation is taken from a hadith, not the Quran, but there are few Quranist (Quran only) Muslims.

The other problem, of course, is that Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha at 6 and having sex with her at 9 doesn’t necessarily demonstrate pedophilia. After all, pedophiles are persistently attracted to prepubescent children, and Aisha remained married to the prophet of Islam for the duration, and he married women who were older as well (including one that was his senior in age).

Still, a grown man having sex with a 9 year old would seem to be a problem, particularly if the grown man that had sex with the 9 year old is the perfect role model for billions of Muslims the world over. So is pointing this out as a problem "Islamophobic," or is it a fair criticism?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yet Muslim apologists do not seem to be taken with this view, instead focusing on historic age of consent to marriage.

This isn't being an apologist: This is pointing out blatant fact. It's no different than defending first cousin pairing because it is so common and genetically causes no harm.
Even your article points out it was the social norm. I've also noticed critics tend not to demonize ancient Greek culture for their own socially normal and consensual relationships between adult men and young boys. They tend to not be as vocal when it comes to the heinous forced (not even arranged as it common throughout humanities history) marriages that are allowed in the Bible.
And because marriage itself, as we know it, is also a modern invention, as marriage in previous eras was very rarely about any notion of love, liking, or other things we attribute it to, we can't even apply our own standards in that regard to it. Muslim members here can probably go into more specifics about the details, but in ages past marriages almost always had to do with inheritance, power, convenience, and other reasons that benefited the families of the two being wed. They were not, at all, for the two being wed. It was not, at all, uncommon for the bride and groom to meet each other for the first time on the day of their wedding.
And the age of Aisha when marriage was consummated is HIGHLY debated. Many sources will say she was older, some not. To this there really is no solid answer.

 

[Rival]

Point being : it WAS the social norm. But Islam has set itself up as a Religion for all people in all times. That makes it an issue.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know what evidence there was that he actually had sex with a girl that young. So I voted other.

 

[Rival]

There are several ahadith (Sahih, by the way, meaning reliable) which narrate that Mohammad consummated his marriage with Aishah when she was 9. The other awkward fact is that Muslims use lunar years, so she could have even been 8.

 

[Rival]

Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:236


Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64


Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:65


Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

 

[gsa]

This isn't being an apologist: This is pointing out blatant fact. It's no different than defending first cousin pairing because it is so common and genetically causes no harm.
Even your article points out it was the social norm. I've also noticed critics tend not to demonize ancient Greek culture for their own socially normal and consensual relationships between adult men and young boys. They tend to not be as vocal when it comes to the heinous forced (not even arranged as it common throughout humanities history) marriages that are allowed in the Bible.
And because marriage itself, as we know it, is also a modern invention, as marriage in previous eras was very rarely about any notion of love, liking, or other things we attribute it to, we can't even apply our own standards in that regard to it. Muslim members here can probably go into more specifics about the details, but in ages past marriages almost always had to do with inheritance, power, convenience, and other reasons that benefited the families of the two being wed. They were not, at all, for the two being wed. It was not, at all, uncommon for the bride and groom to meet each other for the first time on the day of their wedding.
And the age of Aisha when marriage was consummated is HIGHLY debated. Many sources will say she was older, some not. To this there really is no solid answer.

Apologist, in the same way that there are Christian apologists. The website is for Islamic apologetics.

How many people actually defend Greek pederasty as a viable way of life today?

Highly debated or not, the sayings are widely regarded as authentic.

 

[gsa]

I don't know what evidence there was that he actually had sex with a girl that young. So I voted other.

Well the question wasn't about Muhammad, it was about whether sex between a grown man and a 9 year old was ever morally acceptable.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

For some reason people keep mentioning that part. Not that it's right, but being with young girls was not exactly uncommon in those days nor was slavery or being with your cousins and sisters.. Even Greek, Roman, Persian, Arabian leaders had young wives but people don't call them a pedo, but Muhammad is? That's a lack of consistency.

But every culture now and back then had it's virtues and vices. Religions today are not the same as they were back then and I think they bring that up just to think of a reason to hate Islam, even though there's quite a few messed up stuff in the New Testament, Torah or even the Buddhist and Hindu texts.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well the question wasn't about Muhammad, it was about whether sex between a grown man and a 9 year old was ever morally acceptable.

Even if it were morally acceptable then, I'd still apply modern western morality to say it was wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How many people actually defend Greek pederasty as a viable way of life today?

I don't know of any, but I don't know of many people who have brought it up to criticize it either. We are mostly awestricken at how mighty, majestic, and demi-godly we think the Greeks were.

Highly debated or not, the sayings are widely regarded as authentic.

As are the claims that state she was older. As I said, there is no real answer for the age of how old Aisha was.

 

[gsa]

For some reason people keep mentioning that part. Not that it's right, but being with young girls was not exactly uncommon in those days nor was slavery or being with your cousins and sisters.. Even Greek, Roman, Persian, Arabian leaders had young wives but people don't call them a pedo, but Muhammad is? That's a lack of consistency.

But every culture now and back then had it's virtues and vices.

Of course, very few people suggest that the others are perfect role models, either. So Muhammad's position is a special case, I think.

 

[Rival]

For some reason people keep mentioning that part. Not that it's right, but being with young girls was not exactly uncommon in those days nor was slavery or being with your cousins and sisters.. Even Greek, Roman, Persian, Arabian leaders had young wives but people don't call them a pedo, but Muhammad is? That's a lack of consistency.

But every culture now and back then had it's virtues and vices.

The point is that no-one is holding any of these 'other cultures' up as moral standards of excellency for all folks in all times. Another thing to note is that not everyone in those cultures agreed with it back then. Plato in his 'The Republic' put the lowest marriageable age for women at twenty. He was writing nigh on 1000 years before Mohammad.

 

[gsa]

I don't know of any, but I don't know of many people who have brought it up to criticize it either. We are mostly awestricken at how mighty, majestic, and demi-godly we think the Greeks were.

As are the claims that state she was older. As I said, there is no real answer for the age of how old Aisha was.

1. Really? Until recently, it was deemed "the Greek vice" by academics who specialized in classics. It was widely criticized, and conflated with homosexuality.

2. The claim that she was older is the result of secular, academic scholarship, not found within hadith collections.

 

[Rival]

Also we can criticise Plato just the same and no-one calls us Platophobes

 

[Deidre]

It seems that it wasn't unusual for men to marry girls as young as Aisha, and what is important to underscore is that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha doesn't mean that it gives a license to modern Muslim men today, to marry 9 yr old girls.

From my own standpoint, I don't find it morally acceptable.

 

[Nietzsche]

Seeing as how I don't see Mohammed as anything but another historical figure, merely a man of his time, I cannot call him a pedophile without condemning just about every other man of both his own era and a good ways before & after it.

 

[gsa]

He is widely cited as a Muslim role model, though; how does one deal with that?

It seems that it wasn't unusual for men to marry girls as young as Aisha, and what is important to underscore is that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha doesn't mean that it gives a license to modern Muslim men today, to marry 9 yr old girls.

 

[gsa]

Seeing as how I don't see Mohammed as anything but another historical figure, merely a man of his time, I cannot call him a pedophile without condemning just about every other man of both his own era and a good ways before & after it.

Is that actually true?Did most men have sex with prepubescent children? Seems an empirical question to me.

 

[Bunyip]

How old was Mary when she got pregnant with Jesus?