Is Calling Muhammad a Pedophile Islamophobic?

[Sunstone]

Having sex with a nine year old child may have been common in Mohammad's time. And Mohammad himself might or might not have done it. But neither of those things would to my mind justify it. Not so long ago, it was the custom in certain parts of the US to lynch Blacks and Mexicans. Few people today would argue that it was acceptable because so many people engaged in it back then, or that we must judge the people of that time solely by the standards of that time.

 

[Nietzsche]

Is that actually true?Did most men have sex with prepubescent children? Seems an empirical question to me.

During his time and the location? Yes. Young girls were routinely married off or betrothed to older men.

 

[Nietzsche]

Having sex with a nine year old child may have been common in Mohammad's time. And Mohammad himself might or might not have done it. But neither of those things would to my mind justify it. Not so long ago, it was the custom in certain parts of the US to lynch Blacks and Mexicans. Few people today would argue that it was acceptable because so many people engaged in it back then, or that we must judge the people of that time solely by the standards of that time.

There is a difference in scale here. The lynching of Blacks & Mexicans was not something done literally all the time. We're talking about such a wide-spread act that it would be difficult to find exceptions to this.

 

[Sunstone]

There is a difference in scale here. The lynching of Blacks & Mexicans was not something done literally all the time. We're talking about such a wide-spread act that it would be difficult to find exceptions to this.

That seems logically irrelevant to me. But if you insist that it's a relevant point, then consider Female Genital Mutilation. In some parts of the world, FGM is so common the total number of girls and women who've been afflicted with it number 140 million people. Now, I don't think the numbers matter when it comes to the question of whether the practice harms women and girls, or whether it is morally acceptable. Perhaps you do?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Having sex with a nine year old child may have been common in Mohammad's time. And Mohammad himself might or might not have done it. But neither of those things would to my mind justify it. Not so long ago, it was the custom in certain parts of the US to lynch Blacks and Mexicans. Few people today would argue that it was acceptable because so many people engaged in it back then, or that we must judge the people of that time solely by the standards of that time.

That's true, but we don't even have a solid answer as to how old Aisha was. Even if she was 12 or 13, or as some estimates suggests, it is still hypocrisy at best to single out Muhammad and not the rest of the world and every other human who would have saw nothing wrong with this. Such a mentality does not automatically excuse certain behaviors, but it is not, in any way, a green flag to single out one particular instance.

 

[Nietzsche]

That seems logically irrelevant to me. But if you insist that it's a relevant point, then consider Female Genital Mutilation. In some parts of the world, FGM is so common the total number of girls and women who've been afflicted with it number 140 million people. Now, I don't think the numbers matter when it comes to the question of whether the practice harms women and girls, or whether it is morally acceptable. Perhaps you do?

I understand your point, but I don't think those are really comparable. FGM is mutilation(it's even in the name), but child-bridal was something that could be found all across the world, deplorable or not. We're going to need to list just about every man prior to 19-something as a pedophile if you want to go down this road.

 

[Bunyip]

What we refer to as paedophilia was normal back then, girls were routinely married as children. To call Mohammed a paedophile makes no more sense than does calling God a paedophile rapist for getting a 13 year old Mary pregnant.
Times change and modern labels can not be retrofit onto the ancient world.

 

[Sunstone]

I understand your point, but I don't think those are really comparable. FGM is mutilation(it's even in the name), but child-bridal was something that could be found all across the world, deplorable or not. We're going to need to list just about every man prior to 19-something as a pedophile if you want to go down this road.

Actually, my point is merely that it is wrong now to have sex with a nine year old, it was wrong then.

That's a moral judgment. It's subjective, as ultimately are all moral judgments. But it is my judgment, and it remains my judgment no matter how many people have done it, no matter when they did it, and no matter where, or for what reason they did it.

Now, if you want to call it pedophilia, which I understand to be an actual orientation towards children, then that's up to you. I don't think it necessarily was, but again, we may be defining pedophilia differently.

 

[Sunstone]

That's true, but we don't even have a solid answer as to how old Aisha was. Even if she was 12 or 13, or as some estimates suggests, it is still hypocrisy at best to single out Muhammad and not the rest of the world and every other human who would have saw nothing wrong with this. Such a mentality does not automatically excuse certain behaviors, but it is not, in any way, a green flag to single out one particular instance.

No, I don't think it's right to single out Mohammed for any special treatment other than, perhaps, because he is so often held up as a model of behavior to be emulated even today. But apart from that, I see no reason to single him out.

 

[Sees]

As far as I know ages of 13-17 was common, typical for girls and 15-19 for boys in lots of cultures well before and after Muhammad's lifetime. 6 for marriage and 9 to seal the deal seems like a rare thing and big gap in maturity/lack of puberty.

Pretty sure in Muslim sources themselves people were questioning Muhammad about it's correctness/morality...especially his other wives. He always used "God chose and blessed it, so..."

 

[Nietzsche]

Actually, my point is merely that it is wrong now to have sex with a nine year old, it was wrong then.

That's a moral judgment. It's subjective, as ultimately are all moral judgments. But it is my judgment, and it remains my judgment no matter how many people have done it, no matter when they did it, and no matter where, or for what reason they did it.

Fair enough.

Now, if you want to call it pedophilia, which I understand to be an actual orientation towards children, then that's up to you. I don't think it necessarily was, but again, we may be defining pedophilia differently.

Yeah, calling it pedophilia, I think, is what bothers me about it. Because it simply isn't pedophilia as we would recognize & define it.

 

[nazz]

It is usually found in the Islamophobe's tool chest.

 

[Sunstone]

Yeah, calling it pedophilia, I think, is what bothers me about it. Because it simply isn't pedophilia as we would recognize & define it.

I'm suspicious of calling it pedophilia. Seems too much like a slur to me. If Mohammed was oriented towards sex with children, then why were his other wives so much older than children? Why did Aisha remain his favorite even after she outgrew childhood? Lots of questions there.

 

[outhouse]

Actually, my point is merely that it is wrong now to have sex with a nine year old, it was wrong then.

Agreed.

Not only that, if this was someone talking with an angel or a god, maybe his god could have told him to find someone his one age, instead of taking advantage of a child.

 

[Nietzsche]

I'm suspicious of calling it pedophilia. Seems too much like a slur to me. If Mohammed was oriented towards sex with children, then why were his other wives so much older than children? Why did Aisha remain his favorite even after she outgrew childhood? Lots of questions there.

That is precisely my point. This is child-marriage, not pedophilia. Two bad things, but two very different bad things.

 

[outhouse]

This is child-marriage, not pedophilia.

How about both?

 

[Nietzsche]

How about both?

Because pedophilia is sexual arousal only by children, of either sex. That is quite obviously not the case here.

 

[Sunstone]

How about both?

Depends on how you define pedophilia. If you're using the word in its common meaning of a sexual orientation towards children, then you would need to show that Mohammed had such an orientation. His marriage to a child bride is not conclusive proof of that.

 

[outhouse]

Depends on how you define pedophilia. If you're using the word in its common meaning of a sexual orientation towards children, then you would need to show that Mohammed had such an orientation. His marriage to a child bride is not conclusive proof of that.

True.

But its pretty much admitted he had relations with her after 8-9 years old. Im sure we can be safe running with that assumption.

Wife or not, still very wrong in my eyes.

 

[outhouse]

Because pedophilia is sexual arousal only by children, of either sex

I do not think "only by children" is the only definition. I think children in general qualifies.