Is Cherry-picking Okay?

[Ellen Brown]

"And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets." --Matthew 22:37-40

There's not much to pick and choose from, is there? Love God and love your neighbor? Doesn't seem like it would be all THAT hard to follow both of the laws.

To many I am confused; even hypocritical. It is hard to explain how belief has become "seasoned" for me. Jesus, and God seem to make it all so simple in places. Micah 6:8 seems so straight forward, but then there are all the rules, especially in the first 5 books of the OT. I think that some Jews go sort of crazy trying to obey them.

Then we have Jesus' own words where he says to love God and Love your neighbor. Then we have all the junk from the rest of the NT *?* Take 1 Cor 11 for example. This is all greatly frustrating, and why I am unaffiliated. With no one to lead me, it seems clear that the modesty of Muslims seems right. The beliefs on Jesus the Christ of Christians is most familiar to me. Pork and certain other foods still seem unsuitable. Many of the Christian groups seem almost pagan to me, so now I sit alone on Sunday wondering what to do with myself?

 

[Cary Cook]

When I was a Christian, I was accused of cherry-picking when i said I believed some parts of the Bible and not others. Cherry-picking is a voluntary act. Believing (judging probability) is an involuntary act. I cannot choose to think something is probable when I in fact don't. I neither chose to believe the parts I believed, nor chose to disbelieve the parts I disbelieved.

I can choose what parts to obey, but not what parts to believe.

 

[Ellen Brown]

When I was a Christian, I was accused of cherry-picking when i said I believed some parts of the Bible and not others. Cherry-picking is a voluntary act. Believing (judging probability) is an involuntary act. I cannot choose to think something is probable when I in fact don't. I neither chose to believe the parts I believed, nor chose to disbelieve the parts I disbelieved.

I can choose what parts to obey, but not what parts to believe.

The part of the OT that some Jews are so obsessive about is confusing to me, and I mostly ignore the laws there. Some are likely to have been grafted into our cultures, so we observe them without thought. It is the same for much Islamic law put down in the Hadiths for me. I have a feeling that the 5 prayers daily part of Islam, and Judaism somehow dropped through the cracks with Christianity. 1 Thes. 5 says to pray ceaselessly. So I try to in effect have a conversation with God the whole day. Micah 6:8 is a favorite of mine because it is so direct and unambiguous

Sometimes I get very lonely, but can comfort myself in that there is no Husband, children or job to distract me, so in effect, a life pleasing to God should be easier.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Jesus the Christ is a special line of thought for me. Muslims believe that he is the best of the prophets, but not the son, since there is but ONE God. To avoid confusion and the ire of those who have all this figured out, I just say he is so much more than we know, and God will help us understand. For me Isaiah 55:8-9 explains that handily.

 

[Cary Cook]

In your conversation with God, are his responses sufficient to cause you to believe you should go in a particular direction? Or pursue a particular goal?

Or is your presence here possibly the result of that?

 

[Ellen Brown]

In your conversation with God, are his responses sufficient to cause you to believe you should go in a particular direction? Or pursue a particular goal?

Or is your presence here possibly the result of that?

What about you? Life is hard and sometimes we learn more by figuring it out. Much of life is about being taught.

 

[Cary Cook]

What about you?

I make no effort to converse with God the whole day. But nearly every night I ask for correction of errors - specifically either my most serious error, or my most easily correctable error. Whether this prayer is answered or not, it gives me absolute certainty that I am doing my best to be correct, and as submitted to God as possible.

I can't be sure if my present existence is the result of that prayer, but I have become very proficient in critical thinking. I'm 72, adjusted to solitude, and no longer very lonely.

In your profile, you said:
...many religious try to explain things about the Creator and Creation that are not explained in any document. Knowing the Creator is to refrain from that.

I too try to explain things about the Creator and Creation that are not explained in any document. I disagree that knowing the Creator is to refrain from that. I'm not asking for an argument, but I want you to know I disagree.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I make no effort to converse with God the whole day. But nearly every night I ask for correction of errors - specifically either my most serious error, or my most easily correctable error. Whether this prayer is answered or not, it gives me absolute certainty that I am doing my best to be correct, and as submitted to God as possible.

I can't be sure if my present existence is the result of that prayer, but I have become very proficient in critical thinking. I'm 72, adjusted to solitude, and no longer very lonely.

In your profile, you said:
...many religious try to explain things about the Creator and Creation that are not explained in any document. Knowing the Creator is to refrain from that.

I too try to explain things about the Creator and Creation that are not explained in any document. I disagree that knowing the Creator is to refrain from that. I'm not asking for an argument, but I want you to know I disagree.

I'm a year behind you. If you are at peace with what you do that is good. I am no judge.

 

[Cary Cook]

Possibly we'll talk again later.

 

[Poseidon Soter]

I wonder why the term is called "cherry-picking" at all, to begin with... hmm... Anyways, I have a question to ask regarding religious systems and what to follow or not follow.

I was raised Muslim from the time I was born until I was old enough to leave the house and live with other relatives. Since moving in with these other non-Muslim relatives, I've left Islam and have since been on the hunt for a new religion. My problem? None of the shoes that these other religions provide seem to fit! As it turns out, the metaphorical shoes provided by Islam are what would be closest to my own size, but they're still a tad bit too small. This is where the cherry-picking comes in. Could it be possible for me to follow Islam again while taking out the parts of Islam that I do not agree with?

The things I'm wanting to "take out" are nothing too serious in my opinion. Just things that make rational sense to myself. For example, I'm of the opinion that apostates should not be put to death or shunned, but rather be referred to with compassion and included in conversations about Islam as their concerns are certainly important in our ongoing talks about Islam. Secondly, I'm of the opinion that we need to be more inclusive of the LGBT+ community. I'm not sure that I could convince anyone else that being gay or transgender is okay, but I think we should certainly acknowledge that LGBT+ individuals should have a place within Islam where they can feel welcomed and not afraid for their own safety. Then there's the issue of sex within marriage. I was taught that if a woman refuses sex with her husband without a "legitimate reason", the angels will curse her and God would be upset with her until she gives in (Source). I'm sure most of us can see why that view is problematic, and I'm of the opinion that God would not be upset with anyone for not doing a sex act if they did not feel like it.

I also have other little nit-picky things that I think are maybe too strict, but these are all of the big things that I am wanting to cherry-pick. Apparently I'm not alone with what I'm thinking either, at least with regards to including the LGBT community. There is this group of Muslims called Muslims for Progressive Values and I think they're real Muslims too, just very liberal in their thinking. I'd fit right in with them, even though they're not their own independent sect. Unfortunately, however, their mosques are too far from me and are all the way in the big cities. But that's neither here nor there. The fact is that while I've been trying to find my way spiritually and religiously, I've found that Islam may always be my home and I'm trying to come to terms with having a possible Muslim identity while also being different in my ideology. So I'm wondering, can I cherry-pick just a little and still be Muslim? Or is that not really following Islam anymore? In any case, I'm sure I'll be fine, but I think this is an important question that needs to be asked.

And if you're wondering, "But SFG, this all sounds awful! Why would you want to be part of a religion that you don't completely agree with?" While I don't agree with everything, there are things that I still love and miss about Islam. I just want to see if maybe I can go back and try to be devout again in my own way.

Just to chip in, I see nothing in what you've said you have issues with above that is fundamental to Islam. If you believe in the fundamentals, you can certainly still be a Muslim and disagree with these aspects of Islamic law. Just as other religions have orthodox, conservative, traditional, liberal, progressive, etc. forms, so does Islam, or rather, so will you find more conservative and more liberal Muslims. I'd wager there are many Muslims out there who don't agree with all aspects of Islamic law, but are happy enough with the basics and the structure Islam provides them with to guide their relationship with Allah, their journey as a seeker after Him and their personal spiritual growth. And as someone else has already said, you could look into one or more of the Sufi paths.

 

[Brickjectivity]

All religion is personal. Once you understand this you realize that "cherry-picking' in not only inevitable, it's healthy. After all, faith is not about what we know, or think we know, about "God". It's about trusting in what we HOPE to be so, regarding "God", and then living according to that hope. There is no right or wrong. There is just you, the Divine Mystery, and how you choose to conceptualize and respond to it.

I think where cherry picking is not good is when building arguments and just grabbing bits and throwing together things not originally together. If its not an argument and is just gathering ideas and forming ideas that is synthesis not really cherry picking. I think when people accuse of cherry picking it means they are accusing people of selectively quoting out of context in an argumentative or persuasive dialogue. Like for example if you take a paper whose theme is kindness to dogs, and cherry pick it and then say the theme is how cruel dogs are that is the kind of cherry picking people do not like. By selective quotes without context the paper is misrepresented. Often this is accompanied by appeal to authority. "This person says dogs are cruel!" when their original paper has a different theme.

 

[PureX]

I think where cherry picking is not good is when building arguments and just grabbing bits and throwing together things not originally together. If its not an argument and is just gathering ideas and forming ideas that is synthesis not really cherry picking. I think when people accuse of cherry picking it means they are accusing people of selectively quoting out of context in an argumentative or persuasive dialogue. Like for example if you take a paper whose theme is kindness to dogs, and cherry pick it and then say the theme is how cruel dogs are that is the kind of cherry picking people do not like. By selective quotes without context the paper is misrepresented. Often this is accompanied by appeal to authority. "This person says dogs are cruel!" when their original paper has a different theme.

Everyone is choosing the take away the information that "fits" with their preconceived idea of reality and truth. And to leave behind that which does not. So everyone is "cherry-picking" according to the "context" of their own bias.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Everyone is choosing the take away the information that "fits" with their preconceived idea of reality and truth. And to leave behind that which does not. So everyone is "cherry-picking" according to the "context" of their own bias.

If I understand you, you are saying that people do not listen. That is true. People often don't listen unless you say what they want to hear.

 

[PureX]

If I understand you, you are saying that people do not listen. That is true. People often don't listen unless you say what they want to hear.

What I'm saying is that even our standard for what is "truth", is a bias. So that when we weed through information, gleaning the accurate from the inaccurate, we are doing so via our own biased conception of "truth".

 

[Brickjectivity]

What I'm saying is that even our standard for what is "truth", is a bias. So that when we weed through information, gleaning the accurate from the inaccurate, we are doing so via our own biased conception of "truth".

Even so, cherry picking to misrepresent arguments is an annoying practice which is my opinion on the OP's question. I view truth as something we can approach but not purely integrate with. Some things are more true than others.

 

[Katzpur]

I wonder why the term is called "cherry-picking" at all, to begin with... hmm... Anyways, I have a question to ask regarding religious systems and what to follow or not follow.

I was raised Muslim from the time I was born until I was old enough to leave the house and live with other relatives. Since moving in with these other non-Muslim relatives, I've left Islam and have since been on the hunt for a new religion. My problem? None of the shoes that these other religions provide seem to fit! As it turns out, the metaphorical shoes provided by Islam are what would be closest to my own size, but they're still a tad bit too small. This is where the cherry-picking comes in. Could it be possible for me to follow Islam again while taking out the parts of Islam that I do not agree with?

The things I'm wanting to "take out" are nothing too serious in my opinion. Just things that make rational sense to myself. For example, I'm of the opinion that apostates should not be put to death or shunned, but rather be referred to with compassion and included in conversations about Islam as their concerns are certainly important in our ongoing talks about Islam. Secondly, I'm of the opinion that we need to be more inclusive of the LGBT+ community. I'm not sure that I could convince anyone else that being gay or transgender is okay, but I think we should certainly acknowledge that LGBT+ individuals should have a place within Islam where they can feel welcomed and not afraid for their own safety. Then there's the issue of sex within marriage. I was taught that if a woman refuses sex with her husband without a "legitimate reason", the angels will curse her and God would be upset with her until she gives in (Source). I'm sure most of us can see why that view is problematic, and I'm of the opinion that God would not be upset with anyone for not doing a sex act if they did not feel like it.

I also have other little nit-picky things that I think are maybe too strict, but these are all of the big things that I am wanting to cherry-pick. Apparently I'm not alone with what I'm thinking either, at least with regards to including the LGBT community. There is this group of Muslims called Muslims for Progressive Values and I think they're real Muslims too, just very liberal in their thinking. I'd fit right in with them, even though they're not their own independent sect. Unfortunately, however, their mosques are too far from me and are all the way in the big cities. But that's neither here nor there. The fact is that while I've been trying to find my way spiritually and religiously, I've found that Islam may always be my home and I'm trying to come to terms with having a possible Muslim identity while also being different in my ideology. So I'm wondering, can I cherry-pick just a little and still be Muslim? Or is that not really following Islam anymore? In any case, I'm sure I'll be fine, but I think this is an important question that needs to be asked.

And if you're wondering, "But SFG, this all sounds awful! Why would you want to be part of a religion that you don't completely agree with?" While I don't agree with everything, there are things that I still love and miss about Islam. I just want to see if maybe I can go back and try to be devout again in my own way.

SearchingForGod, read my signature (below, in purple). You are a part of the Muslim "tribe." I am a part of the Mormon "tribe." I can totally understand where you are coming from. As my signature implies, it is indeed possible to be part of your tribe without letting your tribe control you. You don't need to reject everything about Islam. Maybe you just need to learn how to "own yourself." I'm working on that myself, and it's not easy! I know. I have come to believe those things that God teaches me. What He does not teach him himself, I don't worry about (or am at least trying not to worry about) believing. I know that rejecting certain things about what my "tribe" teaches does not mean that I am rejecting God.

 

[PureX]

Even so, cherry picking to misrepresent arguments is an annoying practice which is my opinion on the OP's question. I view truth as something we can approach but not purely integrate with. Some things are more true than others.

I don't think the people who do this think they're misrepresenting anything. I think they believe they are portraying the "truth". It's just the truth as determined by a different bias than your's (or mine).

 

[DanishCrow]

I also have other little nit-picky things that I think are maybe too strict, but these are all of the big things that I am wanting to cherry-pick. Apparently I'm not alone with what I'm thinking either, at least with regards to including the LGBT community. There is this group of Muslims called Muslims for Progressive Values and I think they're real Muslims too, just very liberal in their thinking. I'd fit right in with them, even though they're not their own independent sect. Unfortunately, however, their mosques are too far from me and are all the way in the big cities. But that's neither here nor there. The fact is that while I've been trying to find my way spiritually and religiously, I've found that Islam may always be my home and I'm trying to come to terms with having a possible Muslim identity while also being different in my ideology. So I'm wondering, can I cherry-pick just a little and still be Muslim? Or is that not really following Islam anymore? In any case, I'm sure I'll be fine, but I think this is an important question that needs to be asked.

And if you're wondering, "But SFG, this all sounds awful! Why would you want to be part of a religion that you don't completely agree with?" While I don't agree with everything, there are things that I still love and miss about Islam. I just want to see if maybe I can go back and try to be devout again in my own way.

Welcome SearchingForGod!

I know a bunch of LBGT muslims (I help them set up a space for salons and debates here in Denmark, a country with a lot of hang-ups about muslims unfortunately), and several are devout.

As they see it, Islam can be reformed much the same as christianity and judaism was. Many point to Tariq Ramadan and his euro-islam concept, wherein Islam is understood as part of the european project now hosting hundreds of thousands of muslims.

In fact, we have female and LBGT imams here (only one of each, but it's a start), and they are both well learned - they don't cherry-pick, but re-interpret the parts of islams causing trouble in a modern context, and give it the metropolitan and tolerant incarnation it has long had and still ought to have.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Welcome SearchingForGod!

I know a bunch of LBGT muslims (I help them set up a space for salons and debates here in Denmark, a country with a lot of hang-ups about muslims unfortunately), and several are devout.

As they see it, Islam can be reformed much the same as christianity and judaism was. Many point to Tariq Ramadan and his euro-islam concept, wherein Islam is understood as part of the european project now hosting hundreds of thousands of muslims.

In fact, we have female and LBGT imams here (only one of each, but it's a start), and they are both well learned - they don't cherry-pick, but re-interpret the parts of islams causing trouble in a modern context, and give it the metropolitan and tolerant incarnation it has long had and still ought to have.

I was once devout conformist, and spent much of my life investigating the Abrahamic beliefs, to extend finally to the beliefs that preceded them. They were Zoroastrianism and Yazidism. There must have been something before them but no one has found record of them. These days, Minimalism in belief seems most rational. There is ONE Creator. As to what to believe about Jesus (Issa PBUH), it is clear that he is quite special. As an adoration of God (Allah SWT), Ahura Mazda, or whatever one chooses to call the Creator, I've seen substantial belief that a woman who loves the creator will cover her head. This belief is present in Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, though many in Christianity see it as abrogated, though I see that as a risk.

I do not see a reason that women are inferior to men though most cultures practice that to some extent.

As to the LGBT folk, I judge no one, but mostly do not mix with them, but do not avoid them.

 

[Rival]

european project

What on earth is this "European Project" I keep hearing about? I am a European and I have no clue what it is.