Is Christ Myth Theory Credible?

[sojourner]

Some serious wisdom attributed to Jesus,
something that was unknown prior to his time, that
would be impressive.

Is there such? God outta have something!

An awful lot of people including alive today get
credited with miracles.

Jesus is full of wisdom. Practically every Jesus quotation is wisdom literature. Pity you don't see that.

 

[Audie]

Jesus is full of wisdom. Practically every Jesus quotation is wisdom literature. Pity you don't see that.

I dont think you intend a dodge, but, you did not
address at all what I said.

something that was unknown prior to his time

Your response? You just say he was wise.

Nothing he (supposedly) had to say is a new
concept, or one not found in other cultures.
Is there? Tell me if there is.

Are you aware-probably not- that we are taught
those same things, at home, just as part of how
one should live. I was actually surprised to learn that
Christians talk about the same things, but, attribute
it to god and make a religion of it. A pity you dont
see that.

So, what did he say that is new different and special?

 

[tigrers2019]

I dont think you intend a dodge, but, you did not
address at all what I said.

something that was unknown prior to his time

Your response? You just say he was wise.

Nothing he (supposedly) had to say is a new
concept, or one not found in other cultures.
Is there? Tell me if there is.

Are you aware-probably not- that we are taught
those same things, at home, just as part of how
one should live. I was actually surprised to learn that
Christians talk about the same things, but, attribute
it to god and make a religion of it. A pity you dont
see that.

So, what did he say that is new different and special?

If a person just stopped and really thought it through, they would realize that they are speaking about looking through a post-New Testament (moral light) moral lenses.

It was a much darker moral world before the arrival of the New Testament.

 

[sojourner]

I dont think you intend a dodge, but, you did not
address at all what I said.

something that was unknown prior to his time

Your response? You just say he was wise.

Nothing he (supposedly) had to say is a new
concept, or one not found in other cultures.
Is there? Tell me if there is.

Are you aware-probably not- that we are taught
those same things, at home, just as part of how
one should live. I was actually surprised to learn that
Christians talk about the same things, but, attribute
it to god and make a religion of it. A pity you dont
see that.

So, what did he say that is new different and special?

No, I'm not talking about "be nice to each other and treat each other the way you want to be treated" type morality lessons that everyone should know. I'm talking about something more spiritually-specific and more deeply rooted in the human psyche. Jesus brings us an avenue to deep connection -- with God, with others, and with ourselves -- something no other figure has done. Jesus brings us -- not only reconciliation with the Divine, but the knowledge that we, ourselves, share a Divine nature with God. He teaches that we are connected with the very core of creation -- that we carry the Spirit of God within us; we don't transcend the world -- rather, we connect deeply with the world. I'm not aware of any other major religion that has taught those things.

 

[Audie]

If a person just stopped and really thought it through, they would realize that they are speaking about looking through a post-New Testament (moral light) moral lenses.

It was a much darker moral world before the arrival of the New Testament.

It does not take a sage to notice that the OT is full
of harsh laws and violence.


Nor to have heard that Satan knows his
(her) Scripture!

Or that "Jesus" supposedly said-


For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

 

[blü 2]

That there is no objective proof doesn't mean the balance of probabilities is 50/50 though. Maybe 99% would be more accurate.

We can't prove Socrates, Thales, Pythagoras or numerous other Greek philosophers existed, but that doesn't make their existence 50-50 (which would make half of them purely mythical).

It would matter far less if there were no historical Socrates (simply Plato) or Thales, or Pythagoras (centers around which reports of early philosophical ideas are gathered) because we have a larger or smaller view of the relevant ideas, which is what we're really interested in; an historical Jesus is interesting because of the claims no so much that he was a human to whom magical feats are attributed but because he was also at the center of one of the world's largest religions on the basis of promising postmortal existence, and who,if he was as important as claimed, ought to have a clear biography but has only a sketch, a devised bio and three variations on the devised bio; ought to have been mentioned somewhere in his lifetime but isn't; ought to have had a central message but doesn't. And so on.

I'd say the contradictory narratives are better evidence that people are backfitting around a historical figure.

Let's just agree, then, that both views are possible.

The biographies of Muhammad have all kinds of competing information also.

The Qur'an was assembled as 'the sayings of Muhammad' two hundred years after his death, and western Muslim scholarship, where it's permissible to talk about such things, has no doubt that if there's any wheat in there, it's buried under a mountain of chaff. Unlike Jesus, there does appear to be at least one contemporary and independent reference fitting Mohammad, though.

For a pure myth you'd at least start with a single narrative, a real person on the other hand requires people to create their own, hence diversity.

If you've ever looked at Graves' The Greek Myths, you'll know that nearly all of them have multiple versions, different names for the same and new characters, and so on. It's not even clear that somewhere way back there ought to have been a single first tale, instead of an evolving and fusing and dividing of tales. Your argument ought to be stronger for a character invented between, say, 1 and 49 CE, and if there was a story, Paul, if his claims to have persecuted Christians and to have met disciples are true, ought to have had a reasonable look at it; but writing in the 50s CE he knows almost nothing of an earthly Jesus and cares even less. And the author of Mark knows little more, but sets about creating a bio, the only one we have, regardless of whether an historical Jesus had died 45 years earlier or not.

 

[sojourner]

It does not take a sage to notice that the OT is full
of harsh laws and violence.


Nor to have heard that Satan knows his
(her) Scripture!

Or that "Jesus" supposedly said-


For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

Nor does it take anyone with a brain stem to notice that the OT Law is HIGHLY mitigatory for its time and culture. The majority of the Law has to do with hospitality, and fair treatment of the vulnerable. That's what Jesus was talking about: the breaking down of power structures that harm and immobilize.

 

[Audie]

No, I'm not talking about "be nice to each other and treat each other the way you want to be treated" type morality lessons that everyone should know. I'm talking about something more spiritually-specific and more deeply rooted in the human psyche. Jesus brings us an avenue to deep connection -- with God, with others, and with ourselves -- something no other figure has done. Jesus brings us -- not only reconciliation with the Divine, but the knowledge that we, ourselves, share a Divine nature with God. He teaches that we are connected with the very core of creation -- that we carry the Spirit of God within us; we don't transcend the world -- rather, we connect deeply with the world. I'm not aware of any other major religion that has taught those things.

Ok... sounds like your awareness of religious thought
outside your own chosen is pretty limited.

Connecting deeply (whatever that means) with the world
sounds like native american spiritual stuff.

As wisdom, I'd say it is withal rather vague and
not subject to demonstration that it means anything at all.

 

[Audie]

Nor does it take anyone with a brain stem to notice that the OT Law is HIGHLY mitigatory for its time and culture. The majority of the Law has to do with hospitality, and fair treatment of the vulnerable. That's what Jesus was talking about: the breaking down of power structures that harm and immobilize.

Hospitality, fair treatment, and so forth are certainly not
unique to his "teachings" and are folk wisdom /culture
around the world.

If OT law "mitigated" something, it musta been a darn
harsh and awful place before that.

Not everywhere is /was that bad.

You are failing to demonstrate anything unique
and special, far less still, godlike, in the supposed
teachings.

 

[sojourner]

Ok... sounds like your awareness of religious thought
outside your own chosen is pretty limited.

Connecting deeply (whatever that means) with the world
sounds like native american spiritual stuff.

As wisdom, I'd say it is withal rather vague and
not subject to demonstration that it means anything at all.

Well, no it isn't. Admittedly, I'm not so well-versed in other cultural expressions, but I also know enough to know that the very unique thing about Xy is that … it's really not unique. What is different about Xy is that it teaches connection with every other people and religion. Other religions promote differences (we're right; everyone else is wrong). That's not what Jesus teaches.

Yes! It is very close to that aspect of Native American spirituality -- including that of the Inka, of which I am also part (although it's not particularly animistic). That's the beauty and the difference. Xy embraces all, rather than differentiates itself from all.

As wisdom, it's highly demonstrable. It is very universal, which can be misapprehended as vague and ineffable.

 

[sojourner]

Hospitality, fair treatment, and so forth are certainly not
unique to his "teachings" and are folk wisdom /culture
around the world.

If OT law "mitigated" something, it musta been a darn
harsh and awful place before that.

Not everywhere is /was that bad.

You are failing to demonstrate anything unique
and special, far less still, godlike, in the supposed
teachings.

No, but they were for that time and place.

It was very harsh.

Well, granted this isn't a theology seminar -- it's an internet forum. I'm sorry you don't get it. It's very difficult to sum up in just a few sentences why his wisdom is unique. The best I can do is to say that his wisdom is universal and integrative. That's not something heretofore seen in religious wisdom.

 

[JJ50]

I am of the opinion a man called Jesus probably existed, but the gospel writers created stories about him many years after his death, most of which were far less than credible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, they're examples of Jesus bringing people back to life.

Make sure you lift with your legs while you're moving those goalposts.

There's a difference, both in who's effecting the resurrection and what the implications are. You're blurring lines. The point is, resurrection is something Jesus uniquely effects.

There are several stories in the Old Testament of people being raised from the dead:

How many people were raised from the dead in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

That's beside the point. The specific issue was to name something unique Jesus did.

... ong with Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul. Not so unique, it seems.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus is full of wisdom. Practically every Jesus quotation is wisdom literature. Pity you don't see that.

Like the bit in Matthew 15, where he argues against the people who tell him that he and his disciples should wash their hands before eating. Very wise.

 

[Audie]

No, but they were for that time and place.

It was very harsh.

Well, granted this isn't a theology seminar -- it's an internet forum. I'm sorry you don't get it. It's very difficult to sum up in just a few sentences why his wisdom is unique. The best I can do is to say that his wisdom is universal and integrative. That's not something heretofore seen in religious wisdom.

As I said, not all places were so harsh. And they
independently of any "Moses" or "Jesus" developed the
same concepts-the rules for living successfully in a
group such as fair play, consideration, hospitality
and so on, that probably have their origins deep deep
in prehistory, possibly predating human speech.

Communing as best one can with nature and the great
spirit, likewise.

As noted earlier, you are not at all showing that
"Jesus" brought in anything vaguely resembling
an awe inspiring unique wisdom.

Its more like people compiled folk wisdom and
attributed it to him-a common device in folk
tales.

 

[Audie]

Like the bit in Matthew 15, where he argues against the people who tell him that he and his disciples should wash their hands before eating. Very wise.

Godly, even.

The Polynesians were noted by Captain Cook as being
most fastidious in their washing.

The Japanese, another noted for cleanliness, while in
England they had a rhyme-
"I've heard it said
And Im sure it's true
That too much bathing
Will weaken you."

 

[Audie]

Make sure you lift with your legs while you're moving those goalposts.

Savage.

 

[Audie]

I am of the opinion a man called Jesus probably existed, but the gospel writers created stories about him many years after his death, most of which were far less than credible.

You sure that was "his" name? There was nobody by that name.

 

[Audie]

… it's really not unique. What is different about Xy is that it teaches connection with every other people and religion. SOME Other religions promote differences (we're right; everyone else is wrong).

As wisdom, it's highly demonstrable. It is very universal, which can be misapprehended as vague and ineffable.

Plz not editing, in bold italics all caps.
And that the "everyone else is wrong" is a prime characteristic
of christian belief.

We are satisfied that there is nothing about the supposed
teachings of "Jesus" that are unique, godlike, sublime
wisdom or anything of the sort.

 

[sojourner]

Make sure you lift with your legs while you're moving those goalposts.


There are several stories in the Old Testament of people being raised from the dead:

How many people were raised from the dead in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org


... ong with Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul. Not so unique, it seems.

And how did those incidents come to pass? Through their own devices? No; through acts of God. The whole resurrection thing (as I said before) is a sign of Divine work. All this goes to show that Jesus is Divine.