Booko
Deviled Hen
Excellent post!
Uh...just a tiny thing though...actually "God helps those who help themselves" is not in the Bible.
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Is Christianity a Negative Religion?
- Thread starter lunamoth
- Start date
Excellent post!
Uh...just a tiny thing though...actually "God helps those who help themselves" is not in the Bible.
Sunstone, I appreciate the sensitivity and spirit of tolerance displayed in your response. However, my question to you wouldn't be about whether or not people find Christians offensive.
The question is, do you find Jesus Christ of the New Testament to be offensive? What I'm getting at is, if one whips out a NT and ignores everything but the words in red, it's apparent He wasn't at all shy about proclaiming himself to be the Son of God, the one way to God, (the way, the truth and the life), and to back it up and illustrate it with various miracles and public proclamations. He talked more about judgement than ANY modern day holier-than-thou fire and brimstone televangelist, btw.(*)
The Jewish officialdom of the time found His claims to be offensive enough to crucify him; the people clamored for his death when Pilate offered to free him. As a matter of fact raising Lazarus from the dead was the final straw for all of them: it was just too much, too public, too in-your-face. The consensus was -hey we have to do something about this guy, NOW.(*)
so I have to stand by my previous post, if Jesus was here today doing and saying exactly what he did then, he'd get the same reception. People hate him as much now as they did then, and for the same reasons.
(*)Disclaimer Note to everyone: please remember, I didn't write the new testament, lol
:angel2:
Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac I believe.:yes:
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
I'm Luciferian and I don't find Jesus Christ offensive in any way.
lunamoth
Will to love
Are you implying that Christians should be offensive today?
Yes, Jesus did preach a radical message...but it's not the message of hell and brimstone that captured his followers, and it's not the message that got him in trouble either. He got in trouble with the Temple priests for teaching that the Temple sacrifce was not needed, that people had direct access to God. He got in trouble with the Roman officials because he stirred up the people, and they had problems with other radical leaders who actually were actively rebelling against the Roman government.
Today the message that we have direct access to God is so widely accepted that it does not cause a ripple.
And what really should be causing a stir politically is that Christians should not be supporting so many government policies and platforms that increase the oppression of the poor and create a greater disparity of wealth, and hasten the destruction of the environment...Tolstoy had the right idea...a Christian can not put their government first, in fact can't support any government whatsoever! All government authority is upheld by the threat of force, and Christians following the example of Christ could not buy into such a system. As far as politics go...Christians are called to be subversive.
He might get the same reaception and for similar reasons, but we might be surprised who would be the most put out by his message.
What is the Kingdom of God? An invitation to look at things differently and be different than conventional wisdom might lead you to think.
lunamoth
Will to love
Before I go to bed, I'd just like to extend this thought.
Non-violence is subversive.
Forgiveness is subversive.
Love is subversive.
No I am saying (again) that the most holier than thou fire and brimstone televangelist is less "offensive" than Jesus himself was in person.
Capturing his followers is totally not the point. I don't recall claiming that "a message of fire and brimstone captured his followers".
"Follow me" captured his disciples. Miracles and sermons captured his followers, all of whom left him except for the 12. But again, that wasn't my point.
I was saying clearly, and I'll say it again, that if one reads what Jesus said, the RED words, there is a repetitious theme of judgement and wrath. It's offensive to unbelievers, as it was meant to be. Most people choose to ignore or deny the offensiveness...Period. For example:
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. -Luke 12:51-53
Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
-Mark 3:29
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
-Matthew 13:41-42
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
-Matthew 25:46
...except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.
-Luke 13:3
Ye serpents, ye generations of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
-Matthew 23:33
..and for that teensy little blasphemy: claiming to be the Son of God, right to the Chief Priest's face. Oh, and for publicly calling him and his priests liars, murderers, whited sepulchres, hypocrites, sons of the devil, vipers (see above) as well as:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. -Matthew 23:14
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
-John 8:44
O generation of vipers! how can ye, being evil, speak good things? -Matthew 12:34
. .If I should say I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you. . . -John 8:55
Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward parts is full of ravening and wickedness.-Luke 11:39
His "followers" for the most part left, except for the hardcore, and many of them were present during the Pilate ceremony, shouting for his crucifixion, whereupon Pilate said he found nothing wrong with Jesus, and washed his hands of the matter.
Pontius Pilate had no desire to crucify him. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be interested.
I
Sure, but that doesn't mean Christ's claims are any less offensive today.
I really don't want to get into the politicizing Jesus thing so... I'll let someone else tackle this one.
I don't think you'd find him hanging around the Crystal Palace or the Vatican, and I'm pretty sure he'd give Benny Hinn the pharisee treatment. I'd expect to see him exactly where he was last time - walking, homeless, and hanging out with the lost, the reviled and the disenfranchised.
and i doubt that organized religion would fare any better with him this time around.
No, Jesus never changes. He is just as likely to revile the smug and the self righteous now as he did then...
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
This is my understanding too, but you're completely ignoring that Pilate was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Politically he had to do something about it and he tried to do what was right but found it wasn't possible.
Ðanisty;796983 said:
Same here for me. I also find MUCH more of a message of the Golden Rule than "judgement and wrath", but then again, that's my interpretation.
Of course, it's simply because I'm stupid and Buddhist and not interpreting the Gospels correctly, right?
Peace,
Mystic
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
As a Christian, I see Christianity as incredibly positive.
I Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. NIV
It doesn't get any more positive than this.
Don't let the legalists steal your joy!
Christianity itself is not anti-growth. However, much of modern Christianity, especially the modern Protestant interpretation (and especially the more fundamentalist Protestant sects) is anti-growth, in my opinion. I think a lot of modern conservative Christian dogma and interpretation discourages personal growth and discourages self-betterment.
I know. Which is why I said "the adage" rather than "the Bible verse".
Perhaps a number of people are offended by Jesus today - but I still think it's limiting and too simplistic to say that there are ONLY two possible fundamental reactions to Jesus, and that's either acceptance/faith or offense. I do not follow Christ, yet I do not take offense to him either.
lunamoth
Will to love
Hi Moonwoman,
Interesting post and thank you for taking the time to put together the Bible passages to support your points. I really come to quite different conclusions than you about the message of Jesus and what Christianity is all about, that is if you really feel that the main point of Jesus message is about judgment and wrath.
I dont deny that Jesus spoke out against the hypocrites who neglected justice, mercy and faithfulness. I dont deny that He warned us against the agonies of hell, although I think hell is best understood as separation from the love of God, the anguish of seeing our sin for what it is, and the hell we create on earth when we follow the way of the world rather that the way of God, which is love and forgiveness.
But we are told clearly not to judge, and that we will be judged as we judge others. Our job is the reconciliation of the world in the name of Christ, and I think this is best accomplished by showing forth the love of God to others, as Christ loves and forgives us. Jesus had compassion for the crowds, he healed and fed them, he forgave their sins. I think it is by following this example that we fulfill our mission.
Im thinking that you dont agree with the approach used by the most holier than thou televangelist. I find those preachers most offensive because too often they seem to be talking about judgment and hate, when they are not trying to get people to send them money. The fire and brimstone sermons are about instilling fear, but Christ said many more times, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid!
Yes, there is the dichotomy of those who choose the way of the world and those who choose the way of Jesus, of God, of Love. Because love and forgiveness is the main message: seen both in the words of Jesus and in his actions. Jesus is not judging the world, he did not come to judge the world, but He does explain over and over what happens when we follow the way of the world, rather than the way of Love. The message of Jesus was Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near! A call to personal transformation, an aligning of our will with Gods, and a call to self-sacrifice.
cont
Interesting post and thank you for taking the time to put together the Bible passages to support your points. I really come to quite different conclusions than you about the message of Jesus and what Christianity is all about, that is if you really feel that the main point of Jesus message is about judgment and wrath.
I dont deny that Jesus spoke out against the hypocrites who neglected justice, mercy and faithfulness. I dont deny that He warned us against the agonies of hell, although I think hell is best understood as separation from the love of God, the anguish of seeing our sin for what it is, and the hell we create on earth when we follow the way of the world rather that the way of God, which is love and forgiveness.
But we are told clearly not to judge, and that we will be judged as we judge others. Our job is the reconciliation of the world in the name of Christ, and I think this is best accomplished by showing forth the love of God to others, as Christ loves and forgives us. Jesus had compassion for the crowds, he healed and fed them, he forgave their sins. I think it is by following this example that we fulfill our mission.
Im thinking that you dont agree with the approach used by the most holier than thou televangelist. I find those preachers most offensive because too often they seem to be talking about judgment and hate, when they are not trying to get people to send them money. The fire and brimstone sermons are about instilling fear, but Christ said many more times, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid!
MW said:
Yes, there is the dichotomy of those who choose the way of the world and those who choose the way of Jesus, of God, of Love. Because love and forgiveness is the main message: seen both in the words of Jesus and in his actions. Jesus is not judging the world, he did not come to judge the world, but He does explain over and over what happens when we follow the way of the world, rather than the way of Love. The message of Jesus was Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near! A call to personal transformation, an aligning of our will with Gods, and a call to self-sacrifice.
But Jesus did not preach division and violence; He was noting here that that is the outcome when we choose to follow Him rather than the world. The world does not understand radical love and forgiveness. This is what I was getting at when I said that Christianity is subversive it is not a political movement (in the sense of civil government), but individual response to the world.MW said:
You know that the context of this is when Jesus was accused of performing his miracles via the powers of demons. A heart so hard that it views acts of compassion as evil, rather than good, has turned itself away from the influence of the Holy Spirit. This is descriptive, rather than proscriptive.
In this parable and in others about the KOG we hear over and over again that there will be no evil or darkness when the KOG comes into the fullness being: evil will be destroyed. The KOG was inaugurated with Christ and when we choose to follow the way Christ we live in it now. Again this is the dichotomy of those who choose the way of the world (selfishness, greed, violence) over the way of the KOG (charity, forgiveness, non-violence). Yes, this message is offensive to those who wish to always put their own interests first because it means a sacrifice and real change in their ways. But, I think this applies to everyone, not just non-Christians. Its about how we act not what we say or even about professed belief. Of course this message has teeth in it. But, I dont believe that it will be God throwing people into hellfire evil will be destroyed because there is no darkness in Him at all. It is a metaphorical fire, although the pain of separation from God, for those who cling to the world, is just as severe.
cont
lunamoth
Will to love
MW said:
>>Ive always thought that Matt 25, the parable of the goats and sheep, is a Calvinists nightmare because it so clearly states that it is not what we profess to believe but how we treat each other, how we love our neighbor, that is salvific.MW said:
>>I agree unless we change, truly transform, give up our attachment to judging others, if we continue in violence, persist in greed and the ways of the world, we will perish. We are perishing now. But God is merciful, always patient with us, like the man with the fig tree He is willing to work with us and give us another chance.MW said:
>>Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, who were hypocritical. Again putting love above law is what is emphasized by Jesus how we treat each other, loving God and each other, is what is most important. If we say we follow Christ, the way we treat others is much more important than what we say or our pious acts.MW said:
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (Matt 23)
>>That is the same thing as teaching that people had direct access to God, so we agree.MW said:
Actually, even more so I think he was reviled and feared by those in authority because He taught that compassion and inclusiveness as more important than following the letter of the law.MW said:
MW said:
>>Im not saying that I know he did. Pilate was just trying to appease the crowd, and wanted to wash his hands of the deed.
>> Im not politicizing Jesus, but his claims were politically offense, his death and resurrection were politically offensive that to which the world said No, God gave His decisive Yes! I dont mean that he stirred up political strife, even though that may have been what his followers expected. His way is that of individual love, forgiveness, non-violence, and speaking out for the oppressed and poor and marginalized. These acts are subversive, even though the attitude is one of laissez faire toward ones government (render unto Caesar what is Caesars). But on another level, Jesus was all about politics in the sense that He was very concerned about how we relate to one another that too is politics.MW said:
MW said:
MW said:
>> No doubt.
cheers,
luna
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
Great question, and I'm not sure that the answer is an easy one to deal with.
Now granted, there are milder versions of Christianity that are much more inclusionary, and I admire those who choose to incorporate this tolerance into their faith. But I have to wonder if this does not require compromise to the essence of Christianity itself.
"Philadelphia" = Christian loving as a word, is often very short lived, i hear off allot of people who have only received love, if they accept what the congregation says, or sit in the middle. yet never opposing else they get discommunicated in many cases and so turn out worse then before.
Many within my aunties Christian book/coffee shop, go in simply to say how bad others are, that is peoples from different churches; so bad mouthing any church the others are not going to…...which I found very negative when working there and often had to reverse comments, to see if could show why light should be given instead…
Me personally blame all of this entirely on the Pharisees (John, Paul and also Simon) as the negative quotes often stem from their principles and not Christ’s, yet it took me allot of researching and understanding to see all the reasons why.
Armageddon being mistranslated also from Megiddo = “those whom shout out”
Is also very wrong according to Christ with hear what the unjust judge says, “how long before God avenges his elect, though he bare night and day with them”….often over looked and people are so ready for the end of the world…yet not many are working in the harvest and showing love and kindness…the few who do see and understand the Christ likeness within them self’s, I can say have succeed in reaching heaven.
Yet to often people are put back around again in the reincarnation circle, so when that is also removed since 533 AD; yet was taught by Christ, then maybe if some realized this they might want to do more for mammon, in case they don’t make it and have to come back round again.
So it tricky to say over all with this…… as some follow Pharisees more and some Christ, or both i.e. the neither hot nor cold reference…which makes it very tricky when people only stick in half effort for them self’s….as when I last died the thing that got me was the ramification of every action was counted as my own measure, and some follow and maintain this even better then I can, where they can’t let others not receive 100% as they know God gives the more you give.(that also applies to singing in heaven of faith)
So if people did follow just Christ, and not Pharisee who make light of many points like works, separation, discernment, light unto many etc then the world already be at peace…..yet when both sit as one and none notice that it is prophesied to occur like this, then maybe we can all fix it, by the prophecies showing us that certain books are wrong.
Many within my aunties Christian book/coffee shop, go in simply to say how bad others are, that is peoples from different churches; so bad mouthing any church the others are not going to…...which I found very negative when working there and often had to reverse comments, to see if could show why light should be given instead…
Me personally blame all of this entirely on the Pharisees (John, Paul and also Simon) as the negative quotes often stem from their principles and not Christ’s, yet it took me allot of researching and understanding to see all the reasons why.
Armageddon being mistranslated also from Megiddo = “those whom shout out”
Is also very wrong according to Christ with hear what the unjust judge says, “how long before God avenges his elect, though he bare night and day with them”….often over looked and people are so ready for the end of the world…yet not many are working in the harvest and showing love and kindness…the few who do see and understand the Christ likeness within them self’s, I can say have succeed in reaching heaven.
Yet to often people are put back around again in the reincarnation circle, so when that is also removed since 533 AD; yet was taught by Christ, then maybe if some realized this they might want to do more for mammon, in case they don’t make it and have to come back round again.
So it tricky to say over all with this…… as some follow Pharisees more and some Christ, or both i.e. the neither hot nor cold reference…which makes it very tricky when people only stick in half effort for them self’s….as when I last died the thing that got me was the ramification of every action was counted as my own measure, and some follow and maintain this even better then I can, where they can’t let others not receive 100% as they know God gives the more you give.(that also applies to singing in heaven of faith)
So if people did follow just Christ, and not Pharisee who make light of many points like works, separation, discernment, light unto many etc then the world already be at peace…..yet when both sit as one and none notice that it is prophesied to occur like this, then maybe we can all fix it, by the prophecies showing us that certain books are wrong.
Whether the form of Christianity being expounded is inclusivist with emphasis on love and mercy or exclusivist with emphasis on judgment and punishment sets the tone as to whether it is "positive" or "negative." Unfortunately, "lunamothian" Christianity is in the minority it seems and, as you know Luna, I'm not optimistic as to it changing in the near future, (though I think her theology is the correct interpretation ). earl
). earlJessica Magan
Member
You are referring to the actions of ignorant men. Not the actual teachings of Jesus Christ. Every religion has certain followers who are extremist with their own agendas. They should not be your only reference for differal.
gnostic
The Lost One
moon woman said:
That's a huge problem with this quote, in regarding to the division and the "swords". The misinterpretation have been sources of Christian problem, when Christians tried to justify their violence by quoting these passages, without understanding them. It has been the source of committing torture and execution in the name of Jesus and the Church, during the persecution of heresies and witchcraft.lunamoth said:
Jesus actually predicted that his message would be used for personal or political agenda ("mis-use" would be a better word) would cause division, but he wasn't advocating for such division or violence, and he was right.
I believe in your interpretation of these passages, lunamoth, to be correct ones. Jesus wasn't inciting his followers to commit violence of any source, and he was quite clear in his messages not to judge and persecute others.
So frubal to you.
By the way, to show that Luna's theology is the correct one, I'd rely on the nearly dead-i.e., near-death research which would support a position termed Christian universalism, (which isn't the mainstream Christian perspective):
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
take care, earl
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen021.html
take care, earl