• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Christianity based upon Pagan ideas?

godnotgod

Thou art That
I know, I figured that out. He is an expert in plant physiology, not neurochemistry.

The back cover to his book, The Master Game, indicate that he is a noted biochemist, and has done research on cancer, mental illness, the biochemistry of the brain, and is an authority on drugs which affect behavior. Another of his books is Drugs and the Brain. His work has been highly touted by many.

Labeling and dismissing his work as 'psycho-babble' smacks of elitist psycho-babble.


Special is still elitist. When you think of your spirituality as "special" compared to "tribal" spirituality of everyone else, that is elitist.
Yes, I did say that elitist equates with special, but you are not listening at all. Read again: I said that elitist equates with "special' but not with "higher" because Higher Man thinks of his own Enlightenment as 'Nothing Special'.

"When an ordinary man gains wisdom, he becomes a sage; when a sage gains understanding, he becomes an ordinary man"
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
The back cover to his book

Truly the best place to get information. After all, its not like that's where they try to sell the book.

, The Master Game, indicate that he is a noted biochemist

He is a biochemist, who got his doctorate in plant physiology.

, and has done research on cancer, mental illness, the biochemistry of the brain, and is an authority on drugs which affect behavior.

He has done virtually nothing on the brain, other than how plants (and drugs) can affect the body. You can search through his rather meager scholarly contributions on google scholar, academic search premier, or other academic databases. His specialty is plants, not neurochemistry.

His work has been highly touted by many.

No, it hasn't. I've already checked throughout the major academic databases, including psychinfo, which is THE database for journals and scholarship on psychology, not to mention a number of leading scientifc databases. He is hardly to be found cited by anyone.

Labeling and dismissing his work as 'psycho-babble' smacks of elitist psycho-babble.

You are misusing the term. Psychobabble is psychology without scientific theory, which is pretty much all of his work designed for the public. His other work doesn't have any of the stuff on consciousness, and it is mainly on plants:

  • R. S. De Ropp The Effect of Preliminary Soaking of the Grain on the Growth and Tropic Responses of the Excised Embryo of Winter Rye Studies in the Vernalisation of Cereals. Annals of Botany 3: 1939 243-252
  • R. S. De Ropp Studies in the Physiology of Leaf Growth: III. The Influence of Roots on the Growth Annals of Botany 10: 1946 353-359
  • R. S. de Ropp The Growth-Promoting Action of Bacteria-Free Crown-Gall Tumor Tissue Bulletin of the Torrey Botanical Club, Vol. 75, No. 1 (Jan. - Feb. 1948), pp. 45-50
  • R. S. de Ropp The Interaction of Normal and Crown-Gall Tumor Tissue in in Vitro Grafts American Journal of Botany, Vol. 35, No. 7 (Jul., 1948), pp. 372-377
  • R. S. de Ropp The Action of Some Chemical Growth Inhibitors on Healthy and Tumor Tissue of Plants Cancer Research 11, September 1, 1951 663-668,
  • R. S. de Ropp and Doris McKenzie The Transplantation of Small Numbers of Tumor Cells Cancer Research 14, September 1, 1954, 588-590
  • R. S. De Ropp and Elizabeth Markley The Correlation of Different Aspects of Auxin Action Plant Physiol. 30(3): May 1955 ; 210–214.
  • E. Jack Davis & R. S. De Ropp Metabolic Origin of Urinary Methylamine in the Rat Nature 190,(13 May 1961) 636 - 637

Read again: I said that elitist equates with "special' but not with "higher"

"Special" is still elitist, higher or no, especially as you are labelling all those religions who don't adhere to your view as "tribal" in a deragotory way.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
"Special" is still elitist, higher or no, especially as you are labelling all those religions who don't adhere to your view as "tribal" in a deragotory way.

Last time: Higher Man thinks of himself as "Nothing Special", and therefore is not elitist.

re: de Ropp and my reference to states of consciousness:

Put simply, you sleep, and then you awaken. When you are asleep, you are not consciously aware of your awakened state, generally. When you are awake, you are consciously aware of both states. Is that a fair assessment, without getting too technical or anal (Ah, Freud again) about the question?

"Before Enlightenment, it is Something Special;
after Enlightenment, it is Nothing Special"
:D
Zen source
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Last time: Higher Man thinks of himself as "Nothing Special", and therefore is not elitist.

Go into a room with a bunch of christians, jews, representatives of various tribes, muslims, and so forth. Then tell that that through buddhism one because a higher man, while all their religions are tribal. See if they agree with your labelling of "higher man" as not being elitist.
re: de Ropp and my reference to states of consciousness:

This thread is not about states of consciousness, nor do I want to hear about theories on consciousness from an experts in plants. If you want to talk about such levels, fell free to start a new thread.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
If we look at the Incarnation, the Passion, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and the Ascension as a single action, one thing is evident:

THERE WAS NO SACRIFICE

THERE WAS NO DEATH

Sacrifice, as we are using the term, is defined as:

the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

Surrender means giving up the prized item or losing it; destruction, for our purposes, means killing it.

In the First Covenant, animal blood was shed. This was true sacrifice, because the prized sacrificial host was forever lost. It did not return; did not resurrect itself.

Jesus came, intact, and left, intact. The belief is that his Resurrection represented victory over death.

Nothing was lost. There was no death.

There was no sacrifice whatsoever.

Only blood was shed.

How can blood be a metaphor for sacrifice if there was none?

Bread and wine, as referred to by Jesus, are metaphors for flesh and blood, the first representing nourishment for the body, which is temporal and subject to death, and the second for the spirit, which is given eternal life via of the flesh and blood of Jesus.

It is the blood of Jesus itself that held the key to the remission of sin.

"This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Corinthians 11:25)

As for what Christians believe about the blood of Jesus:

"When the Jews contrasted Moses with our Lord Jesus, He spake:

"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, abideth in Me, and I in him."

As if the redeeming, sprinkling, washing, and sanctifying does not sufficiently express the intense inwardness of its action and its power to permeate our whole being, the drinking of this precious blood is declared to be indispensable to having life.[ ie: nourisment; vitality]

On account of sin there could be no covenant between man and God without blood. And no New Covenant without the blood of the Son of God....The confession and casting away, and the cleansing away of sin in the blood, are the indispensable, but allsufficient, preparation for a life in everlasting Covenant with God.

Many feel that they do not understand or realize this wonderful power of the blood. ... The blood of Christ is a Divine mystery*...The blood had the life of Christ, the life of the Spirit, in it. "


chapter nine Two Covenants

When our ancestors killed an animal for food, they observed that once the blood was shed, the animal no longer had life, but that when they ate of its flesh, it gave them life. So they thought that the flesh and the blood contained within it had the power to give life, which it did, but not in the way that they thought. But physical death was the clincher. No matter how much they ate of the animal world, they still died. There had to be a way of getting everlasting life beyond the grave. They needed some power to come to them from beyond the ordinary world of birth and death, a power that had power over both, and could save them from what they thought was a dead end.

*Is it a mystery or a superstition, inherited from superstitious and fear-driven tribal/pagan man?

monolith.jpg



3524237399_2b3896c56d.jpg
Latin%20mass%203.bmp


:D:yes: SOMETHING SPECIAL
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Go into a room with a bunch of christians, jews, representatives of various tribes, muslims, and so forth. Then tell that that through buddhism one because a higher man, while all their religions are tribal. See if they agree with your labelling of "higher man" as not being elitist.

Of course they would! Their egos would be threatened! Jesus did and see what came of him. But Higher Man would never do that. He would, however, tell them that the state of Enlightenment is "Nothing Special", which is not an elitist statement, is it?

I am not addressing a room full of religious types. I am discussing the fact that Higher Man is amoral and non-tribal on a public forum. So far, only you have decided to respond to this issue. The question is: do you understand what I mean when I say that Higher Man does not think of his Enlightenment as "Something Special"?


This thread is not about states of consciousness...
It most certainly is! But you are avoiding the simple question I posed to you. Once again:

Put simply, you sleep, and then you awaken. When you are asleep, you are not consciously aware of your awakened state, generally. When you are awake, you are consciously aware of both states.

You seem to imply that Higher Consciousness is just so much bunk.

Is it conceivable to you, knowing that you have a sleep/dream state, that another state may exist beyond your' 'awakened'* state, one which you are not aware of at all, just as you are not aware of your awakened state when you are asleep?



Shades of Plato's Allegory of the Cave...:D

cavejn0.jpg


*Actually, from the viewpoint of Higher Man, our ordinary waking state of consciousness is not wakefulness at all, but a kind of Waking Sleep, in which we think ourselves to be awake and real, but are, in actuality, a collection of social indoctrinations in which we are acting out a script written by others, exactly as the prisoners in Plato's Allegory firmly believe that the shadows cast upon the walls represent reality. Diffused Sunlight and Ascent to Sunlight are roughly equivalent to states of Higher Consciousness.
 
Last edited:

Oberon

Well-Known Member
If we look at the Incarnation, the Passion, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and the Ascension as a single action, one thing is evident:

THERE WAS NO SACRIFICE

THERE WAS NO DEATH

Sacrifice, as we are using the term, is defined as:

And Jesus' death and resurrection fits. Remember "he suffered, died, and was buried." The voluntary suffering and death (and he did die, although this was temporary) WAS a sacrifice. The resurrection into power for the first opened God's kingdon to humanity.

Nothing was lost. There was no death.

Sacrifice can be as simply as smiling to make others happy when you don't feel like smiling. You are making an effort not for yourself but for others. For christians, Jesus did far more. He went through exruciating torture and his body ceased to live. This was sacrifice. The fact that he rose again does not negate his willing entrence into all the pain he received.


Bread and wine, as referred to by Jesus, are metaphors for flesh and blood, the first representing nourishment for the body, which is temporal and subject to death, and the second for the spirit, which is given eternal life via of the flesh and blood of Jesus.
This isn't true. At the last supper, it refers to his sacrifice. In the passage of John 6 you quoted, you left out the context:
Shortly before the passage you quoted in John, Jesus states :I am the bread of life. Whoever comes [participle of the verb erchomai] to me will hever go hungry, and he who believes [participle of pisteo] in me will never by thirsty. (Jn 6:35)

We can see that it is "coming to Jesus, the bread of life," and believing in him that is important, even though John uses the metaphor of eating and drinking. Shortly after this verse, John makes the metaphor even more exotic: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (Jn 6:51)

Now we see clearly that the bread/blood metaphor IS about sacrifice as well. Jesus "gives" his flesh for the life of the world. Then below, finally, we have the verse you cited (whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood...etc). When seen in the context of all of Jn 6, it becomes clear your interpretation does not hold. Jesus IS using flesh and blood as a metaphor for believing in him, AND referencing his sacrifice.



It is the blood of Jesus itself that held the key to the remission of sin.


Not according to christain doctrine. From paul to the main creed of christian faith, it is suffering and death, not blood. Blood occasionally is a metaphor for sacrifice.

"This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Corinthians 11:25)

1. Symbol again. Jesus was still living, and handed them wine
2. DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME! According to 1 Cor 11:25, the purpose of drinking is to rememer Jesus' sacrifice.
3. "In my blood" loses something in translation. en emo haimati is something more like "among." In other words, the diatheke promise/agreement is involved in Jesus' death. According to the new covenant, his shedding of blood (i.e. sacrifice) is important.

As for what Christians believe about the blood of Jesus:

If you want to talk about what christians believe, it would be better either to quote only from the early texts, of from well known christian works. I know christian wiccans, but in making the statements I do about christianity, I am mainly discussing how christianity was formed. You started this on how christianity is based on paganism. Quoting some random recent opinion doesn't say much.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
And Jesus' death and resurrection fits. Remember "he suffered, died, and was buried." The voluntary suffering and death (and he did die, although this was temporary) WAS a sacrifice. The resurrection into power for the first opened God's kingdon to humanity.

I stipulated taking the entire process into account as a whole, all the way through from Incarnation, Passion, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension as if (and it was) one single action.

NO-THING WAS SACRIFICED, SINCE NOTHING WAS LOST OR SURRENDERED. JESUS CAME INTACT, AND LEFT INTACT.

"Look! He does'nt have a single scratch on his body! Holy Moses!"

"T'was nothing, really, boys! It's all in the wrist, you know...all in the...heh....heh....wrist...":D...now, run along, boys...let's not make a Big Stink out of it, OK?"

Contrast this with the First Covenant practices, in which one's best animals were sacrificed and died, never to be seen again. There truly was a sense of real loss and sacrifice.


If you want to talk about what christians believe, it would be better either to quote only from the early texts, of from well known christian works. I know christian wiccans, but in making the statements I do about christianity, I am mainly discussing how christianity was formed. You started this on how christianity is based on paganism. Quoting some random recent opinion doesn't say much.
I think it says a lot. I am trying to make a connection between pagan ideas that are part of Christianity as it is believed and practiced. For the Christian layman, he prides himself on 'washing in the blood of Jesus'. The blood has cleansing, redeeming, and sanctifying power, and, when symbolically drunk, the power to deliver eternal life.

If given the chance to handle the actual blood of Jesus, no Christian would fail to do so with the utmost reverence and sanctity, firmly believing that the blood they held in their hands was somehow different, far different, than ordinary human blood.
 
Last edited:

Oberon

Well-Known Member
NO-THING WAS SACRIFICED, SINCE NOTHING WAS LOST OR SURRENDERED. JESUS CAME INTACT, AND LEFT INTACT.

If I go without eating for a day, because there is not enough food in the house and I want my wife to have food, that is a sacrifice, even if the next day I get my paycheck and have food. I have still sacrificed, regardless of whether I make up for it later.

Jesus was tortured and suffered a painful death. He did it (according to christian belief) for humanity. The suffering and death WAS a sacrifice, even if it turned out ok in the end.

"Look! He does'nt have a single scratch on his body! Holy Moses!"

Holes in his hands, feet, and side.

in which one's best animals were sacrificed and died, never to be seen again.

Sacrificial animals were eaten.

There truly was a sense of real loss and sacrifice.

There was a sense of deliciousness. They usually ate the animals, and the gods got the inedible parts.

I am trying to make a connection between pagan ideas

Yet you don't know anything about paganism. You talk about sacrifice, but so far the only text you have been able to cite concerning it is jewish, not pagan.

that are part of Christianity as it is believed and practiced.

Buddhists believe that the breath is the life force. The greeks, including the tribal and barbaric culture represented in homer did too. By your "logic" there is a connection between buddhism as it is believed and tribal greek paganism. Additionally, shamanic rituals in many tribes used breath control for spiritual means, so there is a connection between buddhism as it is practiced and tribalism.


For the Christian layman

You quote one guy who hardly appears representative of christianity. And your thread asks "Is christianity based upon pagan ideas?" Well, for a christian wiccan sure. But to say christianity, which has been around for nearly 2000 years, is based on anything because of what one guy says in the modern era doesn't mean a thing.

If given the chance to handle the actual blood of Jesus, no Christian would fail to do so with the utmost reverence and sanctity, firmly believing that the blood they held in their hands was somehow different, far different, than ordinary human blood.

It would be the blood of god for most of them, so that is nothing akin to normal "blood rituals" in paganism or any tribal ceremony I have ever read about.
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
If I go without eating for a day, because there is not enough food in the house and I want my wife to have food, that is a sacrifice, even if the next day I get my paycheck and have food. I have still sacrificed, regardless of whether I make up for it later.

Jesus was tortured and suffered a painful death. He did it (according to christian belief) for humanity. The suffering and death WAS a sacrifice, even if it turned out ok in the end.

Your example is of a willing sacrifice.

A political execution in the form of a crucifixion is not a willing sacrifice of any kind. It was transformed to make it appear as prophecy and sacrifice.

Yeshua was an involuntary scapegoat*, both in the sense that he was unjustly blamed for the problems of the rest, and that he ritually carried their burdens, even though Christians try to tell us that his "sacrifice" was willing. The brutal fact of the matter is that his was a political execution for crimes against the state, then turned into a religious event by his followers. Yeshua had no choice in the matter. As Hyam Maccoby, Talmudic scholar and author of The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity tells us:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus had no intention of founding a new religion. He regarded himself as the Messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term, i.e. a human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Roman invaders, set up an independent Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as 'the kingdom of God,) for the whole world. Jesus believed himself to be the figure prophesied in the Hebrew Bible who would do all these things. He was not a militarist.... He had no intention of being crucified in order to save mankind from eternal damnation by his sacrifice. He never regarded himself as a divine being, and would have regarded such an idea as pagan and idolatrous, an infringement of the first of the Ten Commandments. [/FONT]

The Problem of Paul

The religious ideas overlayed onto Yeshua's brutal death are, namely, that a sacrificial host in the form of a scapegoat* can take on the guilt or evil burden of the community, and that the blood shed by its execution has redeeming power. This in itself is enough to establish the religion as reflecting pagan thought, but the idea of a dying but resurrecting god-man was added, further galvanizing the idea of pagan influence.

You say that the Jews were not pagans, but animal sacrfice and the use of a scapegoat as a means of blotting out sin are superstitious ideas, based upon ignorance. That is the same basis upon which pagan ideas are founded.

Where did the idea of sacrifice to pay for mankind's sins originate?

Where did the idea of a teacher coming from the heavenly realm originate?

Where did the idea of a dying and resurrected god-man originate?

Where did the idea of flesh and blood as food that would render eternal life originate?

Certainly these themes did not originate full blown out of nowhere.

Maccoby further tells us:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism. In this new religion, the Torah was abrogated as having had only temporary validity. The central myth of the new religion was that of an atoning death of a divine being. Belief in this sacrifice, and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity, formed the only path to salvation. Paul derived this religion from Hellenistic sources, chiefly by a fusion of concepts taken from Gnosticism and concepts taken from the mystery religions, particularly from that of Attis. The combination of these elements with features derived from Judaism, particularly the incorporation of the Jewish scriptures, reinterpreted to provide a background of sacred history for the new myth, was unique; and Paul alone was the creator of this amalgam. Jesus himself had no idea of it, and would have been amazed and shocked at the role assigned to him by Paul as a suffering deity.[/FONT]

The Problem of Paul

*****

*The scapegoat was a goat that was driven off into the wilderness as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement in Judaism during the times of the Temple in Jerusalem. The rite is described in Leviticus 16.
Since this goat, carrying the sins of the people placed on it, is sent away to perish, the word "scapegoat" has come to mean a person, often innocent, who is blamed and punished for the sins, crimes, or sufferings of others, generally as a way of distracting attention from the real causes.


A concept superficially similar to the biblical scapegoat is attested in two ritual texts in archives at Ebla of the 24th century BC. They were connected with ritual [pagan] purifications on the occasion of the king's wedding. In them, a she-goat with a silver bracelet hung from her neck was driven forth into the wasteland of 'Alini'; "we" in the report of the ritual involves the whole community. Such 'elimination rites', in which an animal, without confession of sins, is the vehicle of evils (not sins) that are chased from the community are widely attested in the Ancient Near East.


In Christian theology, the story of the scapegoat in Leviticus is interpreted as a symbolic prefiguration of the self-sacrifice of Jesus, who takes the sins of humanity on his own head, having been driven into the 'wilderness' outside the city by order of the high priests. Also see John 1:29 and Hebrews Chps. 9-10


Wikipedia
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
Buddhists believe that the breath is the life force. The greeks, including the tribal and barbaric culture represented in homer did too. By your "logic" there is a connection between buddhism as it is believed and tribal greek paganism. Additionally, shamanic rituals in many tribes used breath control for spiritual means, so there is a connection between buddhism as it is practiced and tribalism.

No, that is via of YOUR logic, which is obviously erroneous. I don't know how Homer's culture USED the idea that the breath is the lifeforce, but it is clearly not in the same sense that a Buddhist would use it at all.* First of all, it appears, from what you have described, that it was merely a belief in Homer's culture, one which may have been used to justify and/or further their barbaric pursuits.

Buddhist use of the breath is not as a belief, but as a practice. The breath is not seen so much as the "lifeforce", but as consciousness itself. It is used in meditative practice to achieve calm and peaceful states of mind, and as a vehicle for transcendence, not for engagement, of the world.

Its employment results in exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting, and your erroneous (and hasty) conclusion that it is therefore tied in to tribal mores. The point of Buddhist practice is that it tries to achieve freedom from those same tribal mores. Buddhist thought is not controlled by tribal social mores. Therefore, Buddhism is non-tribal. It looks for its directive from the universe itself via of Virtue instead of Morality.

"The sage carries the jade close to his heart"
Tao te Ching

*There is, however, some who point to a possible connection between Buddhism and Theraputae and the Essenes as healers.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Your example is of a willing sacrifice.

A political execution in the form of a crucifixion is not a willing sacrifice of any kind. It was transformed to make it appear as prophecy and sacrifice.

Yeshua was an involuntary scapegoat*

According to christian belief, Jesus knew he was going to be executed, and could have avoided it (or called down angels to save him, as satan said he could). Yet he voluntarily went into Jerusalem, knowing he would be captured, and willingly died for humanity.


As Hyam Maccoby, Talmudic scholar and author of The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity tells us:
Whether Jesus actually knew he was going to die, and went to Jerusalem anyway, is debatable. But we aren't talking about the historical Jesus, but about christian belief. According to christian belief, Jesus was knew he would be executed, and chose to die for us.


You say that the Jews were not pagans

The word pagan comes from the latin paganus which has a somewhat disputed etymology. The most likely meaning was simply an outsider, but it also had specialized meanings as "country dweller" and (in the army) it referred to civilians. Christians used the term to describe non-christians, but exluded from this designation was Jews.


,
but animal sacrfice and the use of a scapegoat as a means of blotting out sin are superstitious ideas, based upon ignorance. That is the same basis upon which pagan ideas are founded.




Where did the idea of sacrifice to pay for mankind's sins originate?

Where did the idea of a teacher coming from the heavenly realm originate?

Where did the idea of a dying and resurrected god-man originate?

Where did the idea of flesh and blood as food that would render eternal life originate?


All of these beliefs grew out of early christian interpretation of Jesus' death.

but it is clearly not in the same sense that a Buddhist would use it at all

Both Buddhists and homer's tribal culture believed that the breath was the life-force. So buddhists base this idea on pagan/tribal superstition.

Also, many tribes DID use breath control for religious experience, making buddhism even more based on tribal superstition.

It is used in meditative practice to achieve calm and peaceful states of mind, and as a vehicle for transcendence, not for engagement, of the world.

Which is fairly common in shamanistic tribal spiritualities. They do the exact same thing. Sorry, looks like, using your methods, buddhism is really a tribal superstitious religion.
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
According to christian belief, Jesus knew he was going to be executed, and could have avoided it (or called down angels to save him, as satan said he could). Yet he voluntarily went into Jerusalem, knowing he would be captured, and willingly died for humanity.

The other version says that Jesus did not go to Jerusalem as a willing sacrificial host for mankind, but to defeat the Roman army with the help of God the Father:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He [Jesus] regarded himself as the Messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term, i.e. a human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Roman invaders, set up an independent Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as 'the kingdom of God,) for the whole world. Jesus believed himself to be the figure prophesied in the Hebrew Bible who would do all these things. He was not a militarist and did not build up an army to fight the Romans, since he believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power of Rome. This miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives, as prophesied in the book of Zechariah. When this miracle did not occur, his mission had failed. He had no intention of being crucified in order to save mankind from eternal damnation by his sacrifice.[/FONT]


The Problem of Paul

As I understand it, Jesus and his followers were to watch from a safe vantage point on the Mount, while God went about smiting the enemy. He thought he was under the supreme protection of God.


Whether Jesus actually knew he was going to die, and went to Jerusalem anyway, is debatable. But we aren't talking about the historical Jesus, but about christian belief. According to christian belief, Jesus was knew he would be executed, and chose to die for us.
Yes, but we must interpret that Christian belief, so that we understand what is behind it. It is not enough simply to say: "Christians believe this and that". I contend that their set of beliefs is based upon tribal/pagan ideas, which are, basically fear-driven superstition transformed into ritualistic mumbo jumbo smoke and mirrors white magic. Higher Man, on the other hand, is enlightened man, and bases his view not on beliefs, tribal mores, or morality, but on spiritual insight. Here is the crucial difference between religion and spirituality.

The word pagan comes from the latin paganus which has a somewhat disputed etymology. The most likely meaning was simply an outsider, but it also had specialized meanings as "country dweller" and (in the army) it referred to civilians. Christians used the term to describe non-christians, but exluded from this designation was Jews.
I am using the term to include idolatrous practices, practices which were condemned by Yawheh:

16But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy



All of these beliefs grew out of early christian interpretation of Jesus' death.
Interpretation via of superstitious pagan ideas.

Both Buddhists and homer's tribal culture believed that the breath was the life-force. So buddhists base this idea on pagan/tribal superstition.
Strange that such practice led to diametrically opposed ends.

Also, many tribes DID use breath control for religious experience, making buddhism even more based on tribal superstition.

Which is fairly common in shamanistic tribal spiritualities. They do the exact same thing. Sorry, looks like, using your methods, buddhism is really a tribal superstitious religion.
The practice of breath control is not superstitious because it is not based upon belief. Belief that sin can be expunged via of blood sacrifice and that the dead can resurrect themselves into a heavenly realm is.
 
Last edited:

hue&cry

New Member
From theological study I have come across a varied anthology of teachings when explaining whether paganism has influence or have had any ideological impact on Christianity and for that matter all monotheist beliefs.
From the Golden Bough (A Study Of Magic & Religion) there is a direct link in the manner in which Christians won the Greeks over to Christianity through recognising inclusive similarity of religious practice, remembering that the Greeks where pagans before they were given to Orthodox Christianity, but not only the Greeks also the Arabs given to the house of Abraham.

For me the question is not whether Christianity is based upon paganism? but how much do we realise that since the homo sapiens was first ushered into this world were we aware of God's influence on the course of human nature? as paganism varies in it's many forms of multi Gods and Goddesses Christianity has dominated the world with it's monotheist teachings refining all faiths to a lesser number than it was over past two thousand years, not just through holy war since most pagan beliefs of past a have a much bloody reputation, the change has come out of pure knowledge of Christ the son and any similarity is only a product of a seed of knowledge planted by God and left for us to build upon, no I would say Christ in his unseen form as he has always been since before us would have given to us the true right of religious practice, any similarity is only subject to God's ultimate omnipotence.

However we do bare in mind that Paganism has a very wide spectrum some are good in origin whist some are evil of origin, in comparison on the subject of sacrifice we see that Abraham did not actually sacrifice his son as a goat was sent in his stead, showing to example of faith and civil practice, as it would be savagery to put your kin to the knife and to burn them as the early wiccan would have done or early Egyptian Snake sect Worshippers whom believed in human sacrifice.

At this point it must be pointed out that my view is Catholic and thus Christian I believe that the immaculate conception is of Holy God obviously and hence not subject to Judaism, thus absolving me of Jewish intake and so following the Son Of God.
God in his ultimate Knowledge knows full well the nature of all beings so it is without any surprise that we in the past or present question our existence and place in religious practice, after all the tower of babel was built to reach God not to reject even though it was struck by the Hand of God.
So I say no it God's influence in the garden of knowledge that spurs us and not pagan ideas based of Christianity or ideological belief since Holy God is the ultimate knowledge in the universe and so all good things come of his will.

Marshall Inquisitor.


:)
 
Last edited:

hue&cry

New Member
From theological study I have come across a varied anthology of teachings when explaining whether paganism has influence or have had any ideological impact on Christianity and for that matter all monotheist beliefs.
From the Golden Bough (A Study Of Magic & Religion) there is a direct link in the manner in which Christians won the Greeks over to Christianity through recognising inclusive similarity of religious practice, remembering that the Greeks where pagans before they were given to Orthodox Christianity, but not only the Greeks also the Arabs given to the house of Abraham.

For me the question is not whether Christianity is based upon paganism? but how much do we realise that since the homo sapiens was first ushered into this world were we aware of God's influence on the course of human nature? as paganism varies in it's many forms of multi Gods and Goddesses Christianity has dominated the world with it's monotheist teachings refining all faiths to a lesser number than it was over past two thousand years, not just through holy war since most pagan beliefs of past a have a much bloody reputation, the change has come out of pure knowledge of Christ the son and any similarity is only a product of a seed of knowledge planted by God and left for us to build upon, no I would say Christ in his unseen form as he has always been since before us would have given to us the true right of religious practice, any similarity is only subject to God's ultimate omnipotence.

However we do bare in mind that Paganism has a very wide spectrum some are good in origin whist some are evil of origin, in comparison on the subject of sacrifice we see that Abraham did not actually sacrifice his son as a goat was sent in his stead, showing to example of faith and civil practice, as it would be savagery to put your kin to the knife and to burn them as the early wiccan would have done or early Egyptian Snake sect Worshippers whom believed in human sacrifice.

At this point it must be pointed out that my view is Catholic and thus Christian I believe that the immaculate conception is of Holy God obviously and hence not subject to Judaism, thus absolving me of Jewish intake and so following the Son Of God.
God in his ultimate Knowledge knows full well the nature of all beings so it is without any surprise that we in the past or present question our existence and place in religious practice, after all the tower of Babel was built to reach God not to reject even though it was struck by the Hand of God.
So I say no it God's influence in the garden of knowledge that spurs us and not pagan ideas based of Christianity or ideological belief since Holy God is the ultimate knowledge in the universe and so all good things come of his will.

Marshall Inquisitor.



 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
The other version says that Jesus did not go to Jerusalem as a willing sacrificial host for mankind, but to defeat the Roman army with the help of God the Father:=

Again, not the christian viersion. We aren't talking about the historical Jesus but about christian belief, which you claim is based on pagan ideas. According to christian belief, Jesus was a willing sacrifice.
As I understand it, Jesus and his followers were to watch from a safe vantage point on the Mount, while God went about smiting the enemy. He thought he was under the supreme protection of God.


Yes, but we must interpret that Christian belief, so that we understand what is behind it.

If christians believe that Jesus willingly sacrificed himself for humanity, arguing that in reality he didn't is not interpreting christian belief, it is making historical statements.

I
contend that their set of beliefs is based upon tribal/pagan ideas, which are, basically fear-driven superstition transformed into ritualistic mumbo jumbo smoke and mirrors white magic.

So is buddhism. The opposite of superstition is reason, which christianity did develop but buddhism, according to you, did not. And the buddhist beliefs and practices concerning the breath are found in tribal, superstitious, and violent cultures.
I am using the term
You are using the term incorrectly. Period.



Strange that such practice led to diametrically opposed ends.

1. They didn't. The shamanistic tribal views on breath were used quite similarly to buddhist.
2. Christianity is very different from any tribal or pre-christian paganism, yet you make comparisons based on less similarity than is present between Homer's culture and buddhism.

The practice of breath control is not superstitious because it is not based upon belief.

Yes, it is. There is no science or empirical evidence in chi, breath control, or that breath is any more the "life force" than blood. It is all belief, and superstitious belief at that.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Again, not the christian version. We aren't talking about the historical Jesus but about christian belief, which you claim is based on pagan ideas. According to christian belief, Jesus was a willing sacrifice.


If christians believe that Jesus willingly sacrificed himself for humanity, arguing that in reality he didn't is not interpreting christian belief, it is making historical statements.

We are talking about what Christians believe from a non-Christian viewpoint, and that necessarily must include the historical. Furthermore, from the standpoint of the Christian viewpoint itself, belief and history are one and the same. This must be clearly understood when approaching Christian "belief".

Having said that, the prophecy of Zechariah, which is part of Christian belief, tells us that Jesus went to Gethsemane fully expecting God the Father to "smite" the Roman army. It was to be a spiritual victory, evinced by the fact that Jesus and his small band carried with them only two swords, hardly enough to defeat the Roman army. Jesus, therefore, went to Gethsemane, not out of a sense of "willing sacrifice", but of one of sure-footed victory, via of heavenly intercession, over Rome:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"After the Last Supper, Jesus led his disciples, as usual, to the Mount of Olives. But this time there was a difference. Jesus was convinced that this was the night on which God would appear in glory and overthrow the foreign invaders of his Holy Land. Accordingly, he required his disciples to equip themselves with swords. Two swords were produced, and Jesus said, "It is enough." The Messiah and his followers, like Gideon and his tiny band, would be required to fight, for the prophesy of Zechariah had said, among its awesome predictions of God's intervention, "And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem." But two swords would be enough: the miracle would be even greater than in the case of Gideon. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Only Luke ... has retained the incident of the swords. He could have no possible motive in inventing it, for it goes against the whole grain of his narrative. The only possible explanation of its inclusion is that it is a survival from the original story which only Luke was not ruthless enough to excise. The Gospel writers were following the outline of an older Gospel. To twist this Gospel to a new meaning required courage of a kind; sometimes their nerve may have failed them. This would explain why bones of the old narrative can sometimes be seen jutting out uncomfortably from the body of the new. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus was now determined to put to the test his interpretation of the prophesy of Zechariah. It may be useful, therefore, to have before us this prophesy, which was of such fateful importance for Jesus: [/FONT]

  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against these nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem in the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a great valley; and half the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains ... and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall be known to the Lord, not day nor night: but it shall come to pass that at evening time it shall be light ... And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one ... And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in thier holes, and their tongue shall consume away in thier mouth ... and Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem.... And everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles ... and in that day there shall be no more Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.' [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The strong influence of the prophesy of Zechariah on Jesus is shown by his mode of entrance into Jerusalem riding on an aass's colt. Such deliberate fulfillment of Zechariah ix. 9 suggests that Jesus also had the rest of Zechariah's prophesies in mind. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The people that have fought against Jerusalem" were none other than the Romans, the heathen barbarians who had united "the nations" in a great empire and had set their faces against God. He himself, Jesus of Nazareth, was the person to whom the prophet was addressing his instructions; the Messiah who would arrive in Jerusalem on an aass's colt, and would stand in "the valley of the mountains" together with a company of "saints" to witness the appearance of the glory of God on the Mount of Olives. He would see the Romans stricken by a plague, and would lead "Judah" in fighting against them. Then, after a great victory, he would reign as King-Messiah in Jerusalem, where every year on the anniversary of his victory he would welcome representatives of every nation on earth, coming to pay homage to the Lord of Hosts in his Temple."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus had no foreknowledge of his failure and crucifixion. The Last Supper was a celebration with his closest disciples of his appearance as King and the imminent overthrow of the Roman power. After preparing himself by several nights of prayer on the Mount of Olives, Jesus was convinced that "the day of the Lord" was close at hand, and he called together his disciples for a final strengthening of the bond between them before their crucial testing time. The atmosphere must have been extremely tense. They were about to embark on a great venture on which the fate of their country and the whole world would depend. But the special poignancy and drama of the Gospel accounts are the product of hindsight and of the myths that grew up later to explain Jesus's failure. [/FONT]


Jesus and the Jewish Resistance


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
So is buddhism. The opposite of superstition is reason, which christianity did develop but buddhism, according to you, did not.

As I said earlier, Reason must be overcome for the Buddhistic experience to take place. What that is really saying, is the duality must be overcome, the duality of Reason and Superstition BOTH. You are still arguing the point from the standpoint of dualism, in an "either/or" fashion. From that standpoint, if one is not employing Reason, then one is un-Reasonable, or perhaps superstitious. But Buddhist thought is attached to neither: that is exactly why it is Buddhism. It transcends the dual world. Now, one could argue, from the standpoint of Reason, that the transcendence of Reason implies some sort of un-Reason. But that is merely an idea based upon fear and un-reason, a kind of xenophobia. All viewpoints that are not based upon direct experience are speculations, colored by the rational, thinking mind, and therein lies the fatal flaw.
And the buddhist beliefs and practices concerning the breath are found in tribal, superstitious, and violent cultures.

...which is an erroneous conclusion based upon your faulty logic, as discussed above.

You are using the term incorrectly. Period.

I have provided a working definition of the term.

1. They didn't. The shamanistic tribal views on breath were used quite similarly to buddhist.

As I said, shamans are usually focused on healing, while the tribe itself may have had warlike tendencies.

Buddhistic practice focused on the realization of Enlightenment, using meditative breath control as a vehicle for transcendence, rather than engagement, of the world. In this respect, Homer's world and Buddhism are worlds apart.


2. Christianity is very different from any tribal or pre-christian paganism, yet you make comparisons based on less similarity than is present between Homer's culture and buddhism.

As I said, Christianity is an amalgam of several layers. It is a synthesis of various elements, some of which are pagan. But it is the central theme of blood sacrifice for the remission of sin that makes it pagan. The theme of forgiveness come from Yeshua and his Essene movement. The idea of a descending teacher, the gnosis, comes from Gnosticism, while the idea of a dying and resurrected god-man comes from the mystery religions.

If Homer's violent culture was a result of the belief that the breath was the life-force, it becomes obvious that there was zero influence on Buddhism, whose practice of meditative breath control led to peaceful states of mind.

Yes, it is. There is no science or empirical evidence in chi, breath control, or that breath is any more the "life force" than blood. It is all belief, and superstitious belief at that.

Belief and superstition require the thinking process. Mystical experience is always beyond thought, and therefore beyond belief and superstition.

Are you calling yogic, Taoist, Buddhist, meditative practice, all of which do not involve the thinking process, superstitious?

Yoga and western medicine


There is an accumulating body of scientific evidence documenting the many benefits of yoga practice.....researchers have found that yoga practice can reduce symptoms and signs of carpal tunnel syndrome, asthmahttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn2http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn3, high blood pressurehttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn4, osteoarthritishttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn5, heart diseasehttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn6http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn7, ...hyperglycemia and diabeteshttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn8, fibromyalgiahttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn9, irritable bowel syndrome[, and physical fatigue and tensionhttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn11. Yoga may also reduce seizure frequency in epileptics...and improve fatigue symptoms in multiple sclerosis sufferershttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn14.

On the psychological level, yoga has been repeatedly shown to improve mood, confidence, and attention. Several surprising studies show that yoga has equal or greater effectiveness in improving mood, confidence, and attention as aerobic exercises such as swimming and dancinghttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn19http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn20http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn21http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn22. Yoga, including a spirituality component, has been shown to reduce stress, anxiety, depressive symptoms, and angerhttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn23. Because yoga is a form of moving meditation, it may be inferred that meditation’s many physical and mental benefits also may be obtained through yoga practice.

... the mental benefits of yoga also include reduced rumination, intellectualization, and distractability as well as an increased sense of well-being, confidence, and clarity. On the emotional side, practitioners report decreased impulsivity, irritability, lustfulness, and worry, and they feel increased emotional stability, comfort with themselves, and patience. Physically the benefits are obvious – improved muscle tone, strength, flexibility, and skin radiance – and decreased weight (if one is overweight). Yoga won’t change your personality, but it will reduce your reactivity to everyday irritations, disappointments, and impulses.

From conversations with other yogis and recent research, the signs and symptoms of anxiety, depressionhttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn25, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD)http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn26, addictionhttp://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn27, and obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn28 are reduced by regular yoga practice. Additionally, one’s self-confidence and patience increase with a regular practice. Yoga is prescribed for all types of mental illness in India, and I suspect that it is a good treatment even for mild psychoses.


The beneficial effects of yoga on mental health may be occurring through the process of “neuroplasticity.” Neuroplasticity refers to neurons’ tendency to change their structure and function in order to adapt to the demands of new environments. For a pianist, the neurons coordinating and controlling rapid finger movements will be more extensively networked than the same neurons in the brain of a non-pianist. This extensive neural networking occurs over time, due to practice and concentrated use. People who do not practice the piano will not have extensive networking of these neurons.

Similarly, if one is practicing sustained attention on a daily basis, then it is probable that the neurons that help us to sustain attention and resist impulses will be strengthened. Scientists recently found this to be the case with compassion. Brain scans (functional MRI) of Tibetan monks who have practiced greater than 10,000 hours of compassion meditation were compared with those from a group of novice meditators. The monks’ brains showed greater activation in brain areas related to positive feelings (left pre-frontal cortex) and less activation in areas associated with negative emotions such as anxiety and anger (right pre-frontal cortex) than did the novice meditators.http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn29

Additionally, Tibetan monks showed greater gamma wave activity, associated with consciousness, than novice meditators. These gamma waves may be a measure for overall awareness. “That opens up the tantalizing possibility that the brain, like the rest of the body, can be altered intentionally. Just as aerobics sculpt the muscles, so mental training sculpts the gray matter in ways scientists are only beginning to fathom. http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm#_edn30” In the case of yoga, the sculpting is through both physical and mental means.

http://www.richard.peterson.net/ashtanga_yoga.htm

Sure sounds like the breath, via of yogic and meditative breath control, is connected to the life-force to me.:D
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
At this point it must be pointed out that my view is Catholic and thus Christian I believe that the immaculate conception is of Holy God obviously and hence not subject to Judaism, thus absolving me of Jewish intake and so following the Son Of God.

Jewish animal sacrifice and scapegoating, are considered precursors to Christianity:

In Christian theology, the story of the scapegoat in Leviticus is interpreted as a symbolic prefiguration of the self-sacrifice of Jesus, who takes the sins of humanity on his own head, having been driven into the 'wilderness' outside the city by order of the high priests. Also see John 1:29 and Hebrews Chps. 9-10

In Christian teaching, God became incarnate in Jesus Christ (trinitarian view) or sacrificed his first-born son (divine yet distinct from God for non-trinitarians) to accomplish the reconciliation of God and humanity, which had separated itself from God through sin (see the concept of original sin). According to a view that has featured prominently in Western theology since early in the 2nd millennium, God's justice required an atonement for sin from humanity if human beings were to be restored to their place in creation and saved from damnation. However, God knew limited human beings could not make sufficient atonement, for humanity's offense to God was infinite, so God sent his only Son to become the sacrifice of the everlasting covenant. In Christian theology, this sacrifice replaced the insufficient animal sacrifice of the Old Covenant; Christ the "Lamb of God" replaced the lambs' sacrifice of the ancient Korban Todah (the Rite of Thanksgiving), chief of which is the Passover in the Mosaic law.

Wikipedia


Just the fact that Christianity contains the element of blood sacrifice keeps it in the realm of superstitious practices. Religion is supposed to create divine union between man and God, and that means Light. How do you reconcile blood sacrifice, or any sacrifice for that matter, with spiritual light? Spiritual light would translate as unconditional forgiveness, without the need for an appeasing sacrifice.

It is ironic that we have a bloody crucified sacrificial host in the form of one Jesus Christ forgiving, without demand for contrition or repentance, his transgressors for their ignorance, rather than their sin.

That kind of forgiveness would not require an appeasing sacrifice.

Essentially, what we have here is a blend of elements, some pagan, some coming from Yeshua, who really was a spiritually awakened being, but one who was a vegetarian, and did not approve the use of animal sacrifice, let alone human sacrifice.
*****


There are several stories of miraculous virgin births of god-men that are pagan in origin. See here:

http://www.pocm.info/pagan_ideas_virgin_birth.html
 
Last edited:

Oberon

Well-Known Member
As I said earlier, Reason must be overcome for the Buddhistic experience to take place.
At which point one is back at superstition, like the belief that the breath is the life-force.

...which is an erroneous conclusion based upon your faulty logic, as discussed above.

Wrong. Buddhist believe (according to you) that the breath is the life-force. So do violent tribal and superstitious cultures. Buddhists use breath control for religious experiences. So do shamans.


I have provided a working definition of the term.

It doesn't matter. Your definition is wrong. I can provide a "working definition" of the term "christian" to mean "one who worships satan." But that isn't what it means.



As I said, shamans are usually focused on healing, while the tribe itself may have had warlike tendencies.

You clearly have never studied shamanism. Shamans have been known to have murdered, to place hexes, to engage in spiritual warfare, and so forth. Only one aspect of many shamanistic practices is healing.

Buddhistic practice focused on the realization of Enlightenment, using meditative breath control as a vehicle for transcendence, rather than engagement, of the world. In this respect, Homer's world and Buddhism are worlds apart.

But not Buddhist and shamanism, in which shamans use breath control to enter into the spiritual world.


As I said, Christianity is an amalgam of several layers. It is a synthesis of various elements, some of which are pagan. But it is the central theme of blood sacrifice for the remission of sin that makes it pagan. The theme of forgiveness come from Yeshua and his Essene movement.

Your knowledge of the essene movement is fundamentally flawed, and based primarily on a modern reconstruction with no historical foundation. Your knowledge of paganism is likewise lacking.

The idea of a descending teacher, the gnosis, comes from Gnosticism

Gnosticism is likely post-christian. In any case, there is no record of a descending teacher prior to the NT.

, while the idea of a dying and resurrected god-man comes from the mystery religions.

The dying and resurrecting god-man of mystery religions dates AFTER the NT was composed.

We are talking about what Christians believe from a non-Christian viewpoint
Yes. But what christians believe is that Christ willingly sacrificed himself for humanity. To discuss this belief from a non-christian viewpoint does not mean redefining the belief. You keep citing examples of non-willing sacrifices or people making arguments about the "historical" jesus not being a willing sacrifice. Which is all irrelevant, because that is not and never was part of christian belief.
 
Top