Is Christianity based upon Pagan ideas?

[Dirty Penguin]

Is it based off of pagan ideas? Some here and other places say no. I tend to think it was based off of pagan ideas.

Does it "incorporate" pagan ideas. Yes. I'm not sure what the latest or last pagan idea was but for some reason I'm drawn to the Christmas Tree....

 

[godnotgod]

Is it based off of pagan ideas? Some here and other places say no. I tend to think it was nased off of pagan ideas.

Does it "incorporate" pagan ideas. Yes. I'm not sure what the latest or last pagan idea was but for some reason I'm drawn to the Christmas Tree....

What about human sacrifice?

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Don't you think that suffering is caused by ignorance, and that pointing to the cause of that ignorance is the first step in alleviating that suffering? Drawing attention to something is not condemnation, is it?

Suffering can be the result of ignorance, yes. I don't agree that the Christians' ignorance of pagan roots causes suffering. If a system is flawed, it does need to be fixed, and so the problem needs to be found, the root problem, which you have sought to do, but the problems with Christianity isn't pagan roots, it is those individuals who believe in the system and cause suffering or problems for others.

Does not Christianity also preach love and forgiveness? Charity and good works? Selfless acts and kindness to all?

I know the alternate can be said: Suffer a witch not to live. Some men are born to serve others. "I am the one, true God."

I see and understand your points, but still, the fault is in the individual committing the acts, not the system. The system is flawed, it has been known to be flawed for centuries, even individuals who believed in the system have sought to change other followers perception and enlighten them.

I understand why you point the finger. Ignorance is the source of many woes, but you cannot lead a horse to water and make it drink, it has to have a desire. Just as you cannot point out the flaw and expect one to take bait or follow, there has to be a desire to. There has to be a desire to notice the finger, the person pointing the finger before that. You have gotten many responses and replies, have you had any who have taken bait with the intent or desire to change?

In this day and age, where there is so many distractions, so many people with "answers," so many paths to chose from, one feels lost and alone when choosing to leave the pack, this isn't pagan influence, it's basic human survival instinct. So they join a religion or a group sharing similar views and ideas, and they follow the others to fit it. It is easier to follow than walk alone, and one can hardly blame the followers of Christianity for following, or any religious person for following their beliefs. But the system they chose is not responsible for the wrongs committed by the individuals.

Ignorance is ugly, and in this day and age with all of the information at one's fingertips, it could be eliminated from many, but there has to be a desire.

Love and forgiveness should, in my opinion, be the core of Christianity, as many Christians I have discussed with claim, but with a system so powerful and eclectic, trying to change it or point out flaws would lead to confusion at the best, and that is not a good combination with ignorance, it would most likely cause more suffering.

You may reach a few, and I dare say that is better than none: kudos to you. I just don't believe in pointing fingers, haha.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What about human sacrifice?

Sure. Why not. The bible may have a paganistic ritual for everyone's benefit.

What comes to mind, as far as human sacrifice, in the Bible is 2Kings.

2Kings 3:27
Then he took his eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there was great indignation against Israel: and they departed from him, and returned to their own land.

Another instance that comes to mind is in the book of Judges. I won't post the whole exchange but basically a father sacrificed his daughter.

see Judges 11:30-40

These aren't isolated incidents. This is biblical law.

Leviticus 27:28-29

Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, [both] of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing [is] most holy unto the LORD.

None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; [but] shall surely be put to death.

Additionally we find human sacrifice in 1Kings 13:1-2.

There may be others in that book but it's clear it contained human sacrifices. That in itself is not something new or first practiced in the bible. Civilizations before, during and after the writings of these scrolls people were engaging in human sacrifice.

 

[jtartar]

What evidence exists that points to Pagan roots as the basis for many of the ideas found in the Christian religion?

Originally, superstitious tribal practices included the sacrifice of animals and grains as a means of appeasing an angry, punishing god.

Before Christianity came about, Jews practiced ritual animal sacrifice as a mechanism for absolving sin.

Apparently, when the "punishments" continued in the form of locusts devouring crops and other natural disasters, it was believed that the host was not worthy or pure enough. Therefore, the only acceptable host in the eyes of Yawheh was God himself in the form of Jesus Christ.

"In Judaism....the scapegoat was a goat that was driven off into the wilderness as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement...Since this goat, carrying the sins of the people placed on it, is sent away to perish, the word "scapegoat" has come to mean a person, often innocent, who is blamed and punished for the sins, crimes, or sufferings of others, generally as a way of distracting attention from the real causes.....In Christian theology, the story of the scapegoat in Leviticus is interpreted as a symbolic prefiguration of the self-sacrifice of Jesus, who takes the sins of humanity on his own head, having been driven into the 'wilderness' outside the city by order of the high priests."
Wikipedia

"Psychoanalytic theory holds that unwanted thoughts and feelings [ie: 'sin';] can be unconsciously projected onto another [ie; 'shadow']* who becomes a scapegoat for one's own problems. This concept can be extended to projection by groups. In this case the chosen individual, or group, becomes the scapegoat for the group's problems. In psychopathology, projection is an especially commonly used defense mechanism in people with certain personality disorders."
Wikipedia

The key elements here as a basis for such ritual sacrifice of a scapegoat for the catharsis of guilt are superstition and ignorance. The superstition is that there exists an angry, punishing deity that must somehow be appeased to prevent further punishment, and the ignorance is that one does not understand how to absolve the issue of sin on one's own, so that is relegated to some other power which takes care of the issue via of a suitable scapegoat.

Of course, the higher aspect known as Forgiveness absolves sin and guilt without the need for ritual blood sacrifice. When we look deeper into the roots of Christian origins, we find not Jesus, but Yeshua, a member of a mystical Jewish cult heavily influenced by Buddhism, a practice which would nurture compassion and forgiveness as a means of alleviating suffering. However, Yeshua became a target of the Romans and of the Jews both and was crucified for sedition and treason on the one hand, and blasphemy on the other. His followers then glorified the bloody Crucifixion into a sacred, magically transformative event which would then "wash away the sins of the world" by the ritual shedding of 'sacred' blood.




*Shadow: Adolp Hitler cleverly employed the use of Shadow to dehumanize and exterminate the Jews by labeling them as "untermenschen" (sub-human).

godnotgod,
True Christianity has no paganism in it. What has come down until now, that is called Christianity is a TRAVESTY, a farrago, nothing like what was taught in the first century, by Jesus and the apostles.
Through a process called SYNCRETISM, false beliefs slowly entered into Christianity, over many years, until it is today nothing like true Christianity.
Let me just mention a few doctrines of christendom that have no place in True Christianity, and are untenable, when compared to what the dBible really says.
1.The immortality of the soul. The word soul is a translation of the Hebrew word nephesh, and means the life of a person, an animal, or any breathing thing. The soul is not immortal, Eze 18:4,20, Acts 3:22,23. If you have an encyclopedia, look up soul and you will see that in many places in the Holy Scriptures, animals are called souls, and they die, as do humans.
You know who the first one to say that: You will not die, is? It is satan!!! Why do people want to perpetuate a lie first stated by Satan??? Gen 3:1-4, John 8:44, 1John 3:8.
2.The Trinity!!! There is nothing like the trinity in the Holy Scriptures!!!
God Himself told people to LISTEN TO JESUS, Mark 9:7. So what did Jesus say on this matter?? John 14:28, Jesus says, The Father is greater than I am. John 20:17, Jesus says that the Father is his father and our father, his God and our God.
Jesus used a principle about witnesses, used in both the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures. The idea is; There must be two or at least three witnesses to prove anything, Deut 19:15, 2Cor 13:1,---Showing that Jesus is ONE witness and God is the SECOND witness, TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!! John 8:16-18, John 5:36-38.
3. Consider Matt 16:13-17. Here Jesus asked his disciples who the people were saying that he was. Then he asked his disciples who THEY thought he was. Peter said; You are the Christ, the son of the living God. Then consider what Jesus said. Jesus said that flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but that Jesus' Father, IN HEAVEN, did. Jesus Father was in heaven. Two people not one.
Another important point on this doctrine. When Jesus was on earth, God spoke to him three times, from heaven, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:27,28. Was Jesus throwing his voice?? Two people!!!
4. Jesus said that some tings God knows, but that Jesus does not, Matt 24:36.
5. Jesus said that he does not control everything, that some things, even on earth, God kept control over, Matt 20:23.
6. Jesus said that only ONE is GOOD, not him, but God, Luke 18:18,19.
7. Jesus said that he lives because of the Father, John 6:57, Consider Prov 23:22.
8. Jesus said that he remains in God's love because he obeys God's commandments, John 15:10.
9. Jesus said that the Father judges no on, but has given the Judging to the son, and that God has granted the son to have life in himself, John 5:21-26.
10. Jesus said that all power has benn given him, on earth and in heaven. Who gave Jesus that power, Matt 28:18. I'm sure Satan did not give him this power, Luke 4:5-8.
These are only a few of the things that Jesus said. The apostles said the same things, many times!!!

 

[LittleNipper]

godnotgod,
True Christianity has no paganism in it. What has come down until now, that is called Christianity is a TRAVESTY, a farrago, nothing like what was taught in the first century, by Jesus and the apostles.
Through a process called SYNCRETISM, false beliefs slowly entered into Christianity, over many years, until it is today nothing like true Christianity.
Let me just mention a few doctrines of christendom that have no place in True Christianity, and are untenable, when compared to what the dBible really says.
1.The immortality of the soul. The word soul is a translation of the Hebrew word nephesh, and means the life of a person, an animal, or any breathing thing. The soul is not immortal, Eze 18:4,20, Acts 3:22,23. If you have an encyclopedia, look up soul and you will see that in many places in the Holy Scriptures, animals are called souls, and they die, as do humans.
You know who the first one to say that: You will not die, is? It is satan!!! Why do people want to perpetuate a lie first stated by Satan??? Gen 3:1-4, John 8:44, 1John 3:8.
2.The Trinity!!! There is nothing like the trinity in the Holy Scriptures!!!
God Himself told people to LISTEN TO JESUS, Mark 9:7. So what did Jesus say on this matter?? John 14:28, Jesus says, The Father is greater than I am. John 20:17, Jesus says that the Father is his father and our father, his God and our God.
Jesus used a principle about witnesses, used in both the Hebrew and the Greek scriptures. The idea is; There must be two or at least three witnesses to prove anything, Deut 19:15, 2Cor 13:1,---Showing that Jesus is ONE witness and God is the SECOND witness, TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!! John 8:16-18, John 5:36-38.
3. Consider Matt 16:13-17. Here Jesus asked his disciples who the people were saying that he was. Then he asked his disciples who THEY thought he was. Peter said; You are the Christ, the son of the living God. Then consider what Jesus said. Jesus said that flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but that Jesus' Father, IN HEAVEN, did. Jesus Father was in heaven. Two people not one.
Another important point on this doctrine. When Jesus was on earth, God spoke to him three times, from heaven, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:27,28. Was Jesus throwing his voice?? Two people!!!
4. Jesus said that some things God knows, but that Jesus does not, Matt 24:36.
5. Jesus said that he does not control everything, that some things, even on earth, God kept control over, Matt 20:23.
6. Jesus said that only ONE is GOOD, not him, but God, Luke 18:18,19.
7. Jesus said that he lives because of the Father, John 6:57, Consider Prov 23:22.
8. Jesus said that he remains in God's love because he obeys God's commandments, John 15:10.
9. Jesus said that the Father judges no on, but has given the Judging to the son, and that God has granted the son to have life in himself, John 5:21-26.
10. Jesus said that all power has benn given him, on earth and in heaven. Who gave Jesus that power, Matt 28:18. I'm sure Satan did not give him this power, Luke 4:5-8.
These are only a few of the things that Jesus said. The apostles said the same things, many times!!!

You just don't understand the concept of a corporation. One company several owners ----- one president ---- having equal power over different things.

You must understand that there WERE some thing's JESUS didn't know ---while in an emptied human form, but NOW HE does.

 

[godnotgod]

Suffering can be the result of ignorance, yes. I don't agree that the Christians' ignorance of pagan roots causes suffering.

What I was suggesting is that man suffers because of ignorance of his own nature; not of his ignorance of his pagan roots. He comes into this world not knowing (or remembering) where he came from, why he is here, and is in a state of terror as to the mystery of the afterlife. All of this leads to Anxiety, or, in other terms, Metaphysical Distress. So he seeks an "other" to soothe his Anxiety, but this is a temporary fix, and still leaves him with ignorance of himself.

If a system is flawed, it does need to be fixed, and so the problem needs to be found, the root problem, which you have sought to do, but the problems with Christianity isn't pagan roots, it is those individuals who believe in the system and cause suffering or problems for others.

It is not just their belief in the system that is the source of the trouble; it is the action taken based upon those beliefs. Do you suppose that the idea of human sacrifice as a means of appeasing an angry god, both pagan and Christian, might be based upon fear and ignorance, and that this is carried forward into the actions based upon such fear, superstition, and ignorance?

Does not Christianity also preach love and forgiveness? Charity and good works? Selfless acts and kindness to all?

On the surface, yes, but unfortunately, and upon closer examination, the doctrine preached is not one of unconditional love. There is ulterior motive, expectation of reward, and debt that must be paid. The Christian God will love you upon the satisfactory meeting of certain conditions. The 'selfless acts, charity, and good works' have strings attached. Do you think Christianity would have many takers if it were not for the reward of Heaven and the punishment of Hell?

The 'good works' have turned ugly in India, where so called Christian 'missionaries' aggressively confront Hindus at their cremation ceremonies, literally shouting obscenities at the grieving families, children present, as they leave the services, demonizing the Hindu gods.

I see and understand your points, but still, the fault is in the individual committing the acts, not the system.

Yes, because of the doctrine of an erroneous belief system.

Ignorance is ugly, and in this day and age with all of the information at one's fingertips, it could be eliminated from many, but there has to be a desire.

Desire abounds, but unfortunately, well meaning folks end up perpetuating ignorance rather than solving the problem, simply because they seek external solutions. In spite of all their religion, they end up as ignorant as when they began, except that they have spread more ignorant teachings in their wake, teachings upon which others base their actions upon, and on and on and on. 'Memes', I believe they are called. Replication after replication through the generations of old erroneous doctrines, such as the belief that human sacrifice somehow washes sin away. Ask any Christian how this works, and they will not have an answer for you. They simply do not know. Just believe, and you will be saved. Sure.

Love and forgiveness should, in my opinion, be the core of Christianity, as many Christians I have discussed with claim, but with a system so powerful and eclectic, trying to change it or point out flaws would lead to confusion at the best, and that is not a good combination with ignorance, it would most likely cause more suffering.

There is something called 'holy cunning' and 'clever means', by which the enlightened teach the ignorant, without letting on that they are actually talking about the them. An old friend of mine used to tell me about the faults of other people, so that I would be able to see a problem objectively, but he was really referring to my faults. But the whole point of this exercise is to get people to look at their beliefs objectively, rather than subjectively.

You may reach a few, and I dare say that is better than none: kudos to you. I just don't believe in pointing fingers, haha

Perhaps I will become more subtle and cunning like the serpent in the Garden, and begin using a gentle nod instead of the ruthless, shameless Pointing Finger, haha.

 

[godnotgod]

godnotgod,
True Christianity has no paganism in it.

The central core teaching of Christianity is that God the Father sent his only begotten Son to Earth to pay for the sin of mankind via the blood sacrifice of the Crucifixion. This act served to appease an angry and punishing God who had closed the Gates of Paradise when Adam and Eve committed the Original Sin. Only through the blood of Jesus Christ were those Gates reopened for mankind.

That is pure paganism.

The precedent was in the form of animal sacrifice in Judaism. Human sacrifice in the form of infanticide was practiced before that by ancient Jews when they sacrificed their own children to the pagan god Moloch. During the Jewish rite of Passover, the blood of a spring lamb (Paschal Lamb) was smeared over the doorposts to prevent the Angel of Death from taking their firstborn sons. The Jewish Paschal Lamb is the prefigurement of Jesus the Lamb of God.

In all cases of blood sacrifice, the host is pure and innocent, and is offered up to the deity as appeasement to save the participants from harm or punishment.

This is fear- based superstition.