Is Christianity based upon Pagan ideas?

[godnotgod]

He was not considered a teacher...

...at least not by Christians, anyway...

"He remained celibate, until the ripe old age of 64, throughout his life and preached the virtues of ethics, moral behavior, and good will."

 

[Reverend Rick]

Yes i agree with the op, christianity and paganism are too similar to ignore.

 

[MountainHumanist]

It's funny how we all claim to know what was really going 2,000 years ago based on fragmentary knowledge. It's even funnier to consider how we try to base modern ethics on such limited knowledge. Perhaps we should look upon all of this as interesting speculation, proper for recreational intellectual musings, and stop trying to build belief systems upon that which is truly unknowable. What do we know NOW as a people. Let's build on that.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

I see what you are pointing at. And I have based my arguments upon your own. You point out what is wrong with their system, and you strive to show it. Why?
Yes mistakes have been made in the past, and the momentum of those mistakes is still prevalent, but by saying "you're wrong" opens a debate.
The original intent of this discussion was to provide evidence that Christianity was formed from pagan roots. By definition of christian and pagan: yes it was. But you hold that this is the reason for their fear and mistakes. Why? Do you contend that modern pagan religions are wrong and inferior as well, or that they at least are faulty by association? You have condemned Christianity by claiming their fault lies in being pagan at root, does this not also condemn pagans? You may not have intended to condemn anyone, simply point out that Christianity's problems stem from pagan influences. This statement in itself condemns both parties.
You have said I focus on the finger pointing and not what it is pointing at, and you are correct. You are stressing the fault in others, and providing the relative evidence, and in doing so, you point out that they fail to meet some standard, that they are wrong to do what they have done, that they continue to do wrong.
Yes mistakes are made, they are made by everyone. And it is easier to influence people if they are of similar mindset, but you are essentially blaming an illusion. It is horrible what has happened in the past, but it is in the past. If you seek to some how right what has been done, then do it, but do not condemn those who are no longer around to accept responsibility: they are no longer here, what does it matter to them if you condemn or weep for the dead?
Universal Reality as something existing beyond the senses does exist. What I was pointing out is that you are not basing your arguments through this. Your arguments are based through your own reality, or you wouldn't be debating in the first place. One who has found the way does not waste time arguing about rights and wrongs. What need does one have if they have found It?
They are not preventing you from following your own path, you have given them the power to sway you from it. Yes I know all too well that they say who can go to Heaven. What care I for that? Why does it bother you? If their dogma and teachings condemn others, so what? How does that prevent you from being yourself? Any where you go you will find those who find fault in your ways, why let them lead you off your path?
I am not saying they have free license to do whatever they want, but just because they have made mistakes, does this mean they will continue? And if they do continue and it disturbs you so much, then do something. Action must be taken, not words. Anyone can talk or type until they're dead, but if you see something really wrong, then get up and take action. You asked me if we should allow their mistakes to continue: if there are victims, help them. Let me ask you: Are your words preventing their mistakes from happening again?
Humans are both wonderful and horrible creatures. We have the capacity for greatness and foulness, right and wrong, to move forward or back. It is the fluctuation between extremes that runs the universe. There will always be death and life. What you base as right or wrong stems not from the universal reality, but something you consider right or wrong. It may be tragic, but again: if it is, do something.
What is the purpose of pointing out faults if you intend to do nothing more than point? You brought up the travesties they have wrought due to the fault you have pointed to. This matter leads us to another debate than proving pagan roots, this illustrates a feeling of "wrongness" you possess and where it stems from. But who cares where it stems from, or what wrong it has done or continues to do? If you care, what will you do? Point out faults in a vain attempt to help others see them in themselves?
I agree with MountainHumanist, this is all speculation. What do we know? Life and Death come and go. Whether by Nature or another man's hand, it comes. Do we blame Nature? How do we know death is horrible? It is an end to life, true, and it seems tragic when it is ended violently, but what matter is it to the dead? Now is what matters.
If you seek to change the world, begin by changing yourself.

 

[MountainHumanist]

Exactly, Heathen: The only thing we can say for sure about the ancients is that it appears that people group X believed in X (not that X is necessarily true) and that people group Y believed in Y. It's a pretty well-known principle of human evolution and societal evolution that we borrow from other cultures and integrate principles which work best in the newer society. So, there shoudl be no questioning the fact that Christianity integrated pagan principles and motifs just like the pagans (which is a very broad term) integrated their beliefs and parctices as well. We now know that, for the most part, supernatural phenomena (ie resurrections, virgin births, talking donkeys, lightning-wielding deities, etc.) are fanciful fictions fabricated by the ancients for a variety of psycho-historical reasons. (I say "for the most part" because there could very well be certain supernatural ideas that do turn out to be a part of the natural world after which we would drop the "super" prefix). Having learned this, is it not in our best interest to drop the magical thinking of the past centuries and move forward? Sure, we can still keep the themes in the mythical stories — they are valuable in understanding our shared human experience. But let's stop pretending they are anything other than fictional even if can be instructional. Amen.


As an ordained Dudeist minister (Church of the Latter Day Dude), I think a quote from our holy scripture the Big Lebowski would be in order.

But then, happen to know that there's a little Lebowski on the way. I guess that's the way the whole durned human comedy keeps perpetuatin' it-self, down through the generations, westward the wagons, across the sands a time until-- aw, look at me, I'm ramblin' again. ...Say friend, ya got any more a that good sarsaparilla?...

 

[godnotgod]

You point out what is wrong with their system, and you strive to show it. Why?

Firstly, because they make a claim based upon a system which involves one's destiny. This involves probably the most singularly important decision any human must make in his/her life. To lead one astray can be devastating. Shunryu Suzuki, founder of the SF Zen Center, states:

"The world that is within our reach is the world for us [Buddhists]. There is no other world for us. You may say, "this world or the other world"; this world or the future world, but there is no such future world. Because people say, "this world or that world," Mahayana Buddhists began talking in that way, as a result of a delusive substantial idea. It is easy for us to think that there is some other world which we cannot see. But we do not put any consideration on something like that.....This kind of world will continue eternally. Big world, small world; painful world, happy world... one moment after another our world continues. And there is no connection between this world and the other world. Because there is no connection, we should not sacrifice our present life for a future life, and we should make our best effort in each world."

Secondly, I did not bring up the issue; you did, so I answered it. I was merely attempting to point to the connection between Christian ideaology and pagan ideas. Most Christians haven't a clue, and if they do, are in denial.

The original intent of this discussion was to provide evidence that Christianity was formed from pagan roots. By definition of christian and pagan: yes it was. But you hold that this is the reason for their fear and mistakes. Why?

No. I hold that their fear and superstition (ignorance) is the reason they first practiced pagan sacrifice and continue to cling to them if only in symbolic form. The problem is that they continue to base their beliefs, and actions which follow, upon those very same set of ideas.

Fear-driven beliefs lead to destructive action. Enlightenment dissolves all fear. Then, real love, compassion, and understanding can come into play.

Do you contend that modern pagan religions are wrong and inferior as well, or that they at least are faulty by association? You have condemned Christianity by claiming their fault lies in being pagan at root, does this not also condemn pagans?

No. Firstly, it depends upon the actual belief in question, and secondly, whether that belief is being foisted as the One True Path, and then acted upon in such a way as to lead to control of other humans. I don't believe modern pagans make such claims, nor do they have the kind of controlling power that modern organized Christianity does.

You may not have intended to condemn anyone, simply point out that Christianity's problems stem from pagan influences. This statement in itself condemns both parties.

The initial intention was to demonstrate the connection to paganism. The fact that problems developed as a result may be due to the fact that such beliefs and practices are based upon delusive ideas, such as blood sacrifice. Given the facts, one must then make up one's own mind about the authenticity of any such ideas.

You have said I focus on the finger pointing and not what it is pointing at, and you are correct. You are stressing the fault in others, and providing the relative evidence, and in doing so, you point out that they fail to meet some standard, that they are wrong to do what they have done, that they continue to do wrong.

The wrong they have done, and continue to do does not just affect them; it is harmful to many, but it is not readily apparent, since it is cloaked in the concept of doing 'Good'. Hence, the need for the pointing finger. Just be thankful that I am one to choose the finger rather than the sword. If there were no fingers like mine in this world, you might miss important hidden things, such as wolves wearing sheep's clothing. I take all the blame and responsibility for my wayward pointing finger.

Yes mistakes are made, they are made by everyone. And it is easier to influence people if they are of similar mindset, but you are essentially blaming an illusion. It is horrible what has happened in the past, but it is in the past.

An illusion? All in the past? Surely you jest! Just for starters, (and we will probably need to go to a separate topic on this one) were you even aware of the horrendous harm Christian missionaries are currently inflicting on Hindus in their hell bent for leather campaign for aggressive conversion? Here, take a peek at this site, for example:

Crusade Watch, Religious Conversion Watch, Evangelism watch

Universal Reality as something existing beyond the senses does exist. What I was pointing out is that you are not basing your arguments through this.

Yes I am. The wrong I point out is done in the name of the Good. Christians don't see it because they think they can only do Good. When one is looking at the issue from the standpoint of the universal viewpoint, one sees the connection between Good and Evil, without being attached to either. It is from this center position that I point my finger.

Your arguments are based through your own reality, or you wouldn't be debating in the first place. One who has found the way does not waste time arguing about rights and wrongs. What need does one have if they have found It?

Once you find it, compassion for the suffering of others becomes of paramount importance. Hence, the need to point out the cause of suffering. Is this an argument or a discussion? I, for one, am not attached to caring about whether I am right or wrong. I just want the truth to be known.

They are not preventing you from following your own path, you have given them the power to sway you from it. Yes I know all too well that they say who can go to Heaven. What care I for that? Why does it bother you? If their dogma and teachings condemn others, so what? How does that prevent you from being yourself? Any where you go you will find those who find fault in your ways, why let them lead you off your path?

They are not leading me anywhere. The spiritual path involves more than just yourself. It involves all of mankind. All I can do is to shine my light. People are in the dark because they think they are in the light. They got there because they mistook the description of reality for reality itself. They mistook a rope for a snake, and recoiled in fear, and then acted upon that fear. Real light shows them that the rope is just a rope.

I am not saying they have free license to do whatever they want, but just because they have made mistakes, does this mean they will continue? And if they do continue and it disturbs you so much, then do something.

I am doing something. I am using my finger that godnotgod gave me.

Action must be taken, not words. Anyone can talk or type until they're dead, but if you see something really wrong, then get up and take action. You asked me if we should allow their mistakes to continue: if there are victims, help them.

Conscious awareness precedes action. People need to be made aware before action can be taken. Without awareness, the wrong action is taken, resulting in the wrong results. Action taken to alleviate the problem can be worse than the original condition. Hence, I continue to point my unwavering finger.

Let me ask you: Are your words preventing their mistakes from happening again?

We finger pointers are a tiny minority who are dedicated to spitting into the wind, and gambling a snowflake's chance in hell. Yes, David did slay Goliath.

If you care, what will you do? Point out faults in a vain attempt to help others see them in themselves?

Learning to see is the first step.

Now is what matters. If you seek to change the world, begin by changing yourself.

Yes indeed! It did take me a few years myself to come to grips with my own Christian indoctrination. That alone grants me license for the judicious and calculated use of One Finger, Pointing Type.

Oh, the awesome, transformative power!

Hallelujah!:woohoo:

 

[godnotgod]

... is it not in our best interest to drop the magical thinking of the past centuries and move forward? Sure, we can still keep the themes in the mythical stories — they are valuable in understanding our shared human experience. But let's stop pretending they are anything other than fictional even if can be instructional.

Good point, but we should be careful not to go too far. For example, the ancient Greek word for 'spirit' was pneuma. In mostly all spiritual disciplines, even in Christianity, the breath is recognized as central; it is the life force itself. Science has eviscerated the word pneuma to mean only 'air', as in 'pneumatic', and 'pneumonia', rendering it lifeless and sterile.

There needs to be a balance struck between the magical world and the world as understood via the intellect, so that the one ends up transforming the other, and vice versa. As Alan Watts points out:

"Thus when the dead man talks, he gives us the facts; he tells all and says nothing. But when the living man talks, he gives us poetry and myth. That is to say, he gives us a word from the unconscious--not from the psychoanalytical garbage can, but from the living world which is not to be remembered of which no trace can be found in history, in the record of facts, because it is not yet dead. The world of myth is past, is "once upon a time", in a symbolic sense only--in the sense that it is behind us, not as time past is behind us, but as the brain which cannot be seen is behind the eyes which see, as behind memory is that which remembers and cannot be remembered. Thus, poetry and myth are accounts of the real world which is, as distinct from the dead world which was, and therefore will be. The form of myth is magical and wonderful because the real world is magical and wonderful--in the sense that we cannot pin it down, that we do not understand it because it under-stands us."

from: "Myth and Ritual in Christianity", by Alan Watts

One day, we may at last get a glimpse that the ordinary world and the miraculous are one and the same. The difference is only conceptual.

 

[mixond]

Of course it is.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

From the universal standpoint, there is not good or evil, and therefore, you are still viewing it from your reality. You may see things that abhor you, and through that you recoil and point a finger.
Yes, awareness needs to be made, but awareness of the wrongs of Christianity have been around for centuries. How many more centuries do you need to think about it before you act?
Here is another question: why are you only pointing at Christians? Why not Americans for their actions? How about blaming all African-Americans for the problems associated stereotypically with gangs? What about "cowboys and indians?" Or the British Empire? Germans for Nazis? Bring in UFO's while you're at it. You are choosing to blame a system on the actions of a handful of individuals.
In any group of people you will have those who "go off the deep end." And you are blaming a belief system, a set of ideas, you are pointing at an illusion.
Christians have done what they have done because of their convictions, their way of life, as right or wrong as you see it. If you really want to help, do something. Words may inspire, invoke awe, instill fear, but unless they are backed by action, they are meaningless. Too many people have spoken out against Christians, and look what has happened: nothing. A few denomination changes, a new system of order, the introduction of another hyperbole. Yes it needs to be proper action, but your words are nothing new, they aren't inspiring movement. I have attacked the finger doing the pointing because it uses dead arguments and debases itself. I agree with some of your points, but reality is not on your side, you are still steeped in your own. Things are the way they are, this is the only world we can live in. In this universe, the big is getting smaller, and the smaller is growing larger.
Yes, paganism has been part of Christianity. The fear in the system is from the hearts of its followers, not ancient philosophies or ideas.

 

[Cobblestones]

It's funny how we all claim to know what was really going 2,000 years ago based on fragmentary knowledge. It's even funnier to consider how we try to base modern ethics on such limited knowledge. Perhaps we should look upon all of this as interesting speculation, proper for recreational intellectual musings, and stop trying to build belief systems upon that which is truly unknowable. What do we know NOW as a people. Let's build on that.

It won't let me frubal you but consider yourself well acclaimed.

 

[Cobblestones]

Exactly, Heathen: The only thing we can say for sure about the ancients is that it appears that people group X believed in X (not that X is necessarily true) and that people group Y believed in Y. It's a pretty well-known principle of human evolution and societal evolution that we borrow from other cultures and integrate principles which work best in the newer society. So, there shoudl be no questioning the fact that Christianity integrated pagan principles and motifs just like the pagans (which is a very broad term) integrated their beliefs and parctices as well.

It makes me wonder why people choose a label like "Christian" at all considering that the main thing is "love one another" which is found in many religions. Why not simply call ourselves "humans" (for example), do our best to be good to each other, and stop talking through our hats about things that can only be speculated upon?

 

[godnotgod]

From the universal standpoint, there is not good or evil, and therefore, you are still viewing it from your reality. You may see things that abhor you, and through that you recoil and point a finger.

From a universal view, good and evil are seen as complimentary; from the relative view, they are seen as being in conflict with each other. Because they are seen as being in conflict with each other, offensive action is taken. Offensive action creates suffering. From the universal view, one has compassion on those who suffer needlessly as a result of misdirected offensive action. From this view, one sees the cause and effect of the relative view, but is not attached to either, though it encompasses both. It is the conflict between good and evil as seen from the relative view that is understood as being illusory from the universal view. This causes Pointing Finger to arise. Look! See?

Yes, awareness needs to be made, but awareness of the wrongs of Christianity have been around for centuries. How many more centuries do you need to think about it before you act?

It is not the non-Christian world that needs to be made aware of Christianity's wrongdoings, but Christians themselves. They are the ones who need to make the shift away from destructive action based upon dogma. They have no reason to make a change unless they are first made aware of the problem.

What kind of action did you have in mind?

Here is another question: why are you only pointing at Christians? Why not Americans for their actions?

Similar basis for action applies to both.

You are choosing to blame a system on the actions of a handful of individuals.

I don't think so. Universally, all Christians adopt the doctrine that only through Jesus can anyone attain salvation, and that means via of accepting the blood sacrifice of the Crucifixion as the legitimate pathway. Additionally, all Christians are mandated to convert all non-Christians.

In any group of people you will have those who "go off the deep end." And you are blaming a belief system, a set of ideas, you are pointing at an illusion.

While the belief itself may be based upon an illusion, the effects of taking action based upon those beliefs is very real. I point to the illusion in hopes that it can be understood as such. Once you understand that your beliefs are not based upon reality, there is no longer any reason to act upon them. Then, instead of the Christian attempting to change the world, he would, as you suggested, instead change himself. In changing himself, he comes to realize that he himself is the world. But to begin to make such changes, he must first be made aware on what his belief system is actually based upon. Enter the Pointing Finger. The Pointing Finger is not an accusing finger, but an indicative one. Look. See?

Christians have done what they have done because of their convictions, their way of life, as right or wrong as you see it.

No they haven't. They have done what they have done because of the dictates of others. Being Christian means to follow the moral pronouncements of authority without questioning, so how can one develop 'convictions'? Everything about Christianity is anti-freedom of thought. Remember, it was free will that got man in hot water in the first place. They shut the door on that long ago. They only want to be on the 'right' side. Run to the Good and shun Evil.

If you really want to help, do something. Words may inspire, invoke awe, instill fear, but unless they are backed by action, they are meaningless.

Sorry, but I cannot force a Christian to make that change. They must do it themselves. All I can do is shed the light and point the finger. See?

Too many people have spoken out against Christians, and look what has happened: nothing. A few denomination changes, a new system of order, the introduction of another hyperbole. Yes it needs to be proper action, but your words are nothing new, they aren't inspiring movement.

How do you know that? Christians may deny emphatically what I say, but the words still register behind the facade of their persona.

I have attacked the finger doing the pointing because it uses dead arguments and debases itself.

Pointing fingers do not speak nor do they entertain doctrines. Look! See?

I agree with some of your points, but reality is not on your side, you are still steeped in your own.

Pointing fingers do not have 'sides'. They can only point to them. Look! See?

"Zen is a finger pointing to the moon, but is not the moon itself"
Unknown Zen source

Things are the way they are, this is the only world we can live in. In this universe, the big is getting smaller, and the smaller is growing larger.
Yes, paganism has been part of Christianity. The fear in the system is from the hearts of its followers, not ancient philosophies or ideas.

It is those ancient ideas that were sowed in the heart and became firmly rooted, then passed down from generation to generation, reinforced again and again. All one need do to confirm what I say is to look to the current Christian-Musliim conflict that is erupting all around the world. And to think that it is all because the Christian will not share his table with the Muslim because they refuse to recognize the inheritance granted to an Arab. For shame!

 

[godnotgod]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_coFoAhVunLs/R12HYwjXHSI/AAAAAAAAARA/O78mCa9ArK8/s400/yo****oshi-moon-hotei.jpg

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

I see. You point the finger, but refuse to take action. You hide behind an enlightened facade so as not to be blamed for your finger pointing, but the finger is still being pointed. See?
What you are pointing at is irrelevant. You say you are trying to spread awareness, yet you refuse to accept responsibility. You are the force behind the finger being pointed, you had a thought, you took care of it, let it blossom, put enough action and energy in it to raise a finger, but no more. You are like one staring at the sun. You see the harm that can be caused by it, yet you fail to see the good that also comes from it. Christianity has done some good as well.
Convictions are developed when one forms belief and manifests the belief in their reality. You cannot say with a conscience that all Christians are wrong, if you can...
You try to sound enlightened, if you are, why are you pointing at others? You have said to spread awareness and hope for change, but you are a finger. You are a mindless finger after all, incapable of thought or reason. If you are but a finger, although an enlightened one, how do you know what to point at? If you are nothing but a tool to shed light, why illuminate the dead? If you want to illumine the living, you must find reason and compassion, but a finger has not these. You must feel compassion not only for the victims, but for the aggressors, for they are victims as well, being led astray and committing acts because someone else pointed their finger.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I see. You point the finger, but refuse to take action. You hide behind an enlightened facade so as not to be blamed for your finger pointing, but the finger is still being pointed. See?
What you are pointing at is irrelevant. You say you are trying to spread awareness, yet you refuse to accept responsibility. You are the force behind the finger being pointed, you had a thought, you took care of it, let it blossom, put enough action and energy in it to raise a finger, but no more. You are like one staring at the sun. You see the harm that can be caused by it, yet you fail to see the good that also comes from it. Christianity has done some good as well.
Convictions are developed when one forms belief and manifests the belief in their reality. You cannot say with a conscience that all Christians are wrong, if you can...
You try to sound enlightened, if you are, why are you pointing at others? You have said to spread awareness and hope for change, but you are a finger. You are a mindless finger after all, incapable of thought or reason. If you are but a finger, although an enlightened one, how do you know what to point at? If you are nothing but a tool to shed light, why illuminate the dead? If you want to illumine the living, you must find reason and compassion, but a finger has not these. You must feel compassion not only for the victims, but for the aggressors, for they are victims as well, being led astray and committing acts because someone else pointed their finger.

Such bold allegations......wow...

 

[godnotgod]

I see.

No, I am afraid you do not see. If you did, you would understand, but you are adding to the seeing more than what is there.

You point the finger, but refuse to take action.

Once again, the pointing finger is not accusative, but indicative. Action is another issue, one which I suggested was on the part of Christians to take. You had suggested previously that action be taken, so I asked you specifically what you had in mind. You ignored my question. So I will ask you once again:

What action do you suggest be taken?

You hide behind an enlightened facade so as not to be blamed for your finger pointing,...

Excuse me? Hiding? On the contrary, I am bringing this issue to the forefront on this forum for discussion simply because it is kept hidden. I am completely out in the open. My pointing finger is blameless. Go ahead and attack it once more; it does'nt care.

...but the finger is still being pointed. See?

You got that right, and as long as the wool is being pulled over people's eyes, it will continue to be pointed, see?

What you are pointing at is irrelevant.

I disagree. I think it is crucially important, because I am pointing to something erroneous that is being foisted as authentic under the color of divine authority, the result of which is mental enslavement on the one hand, and suffering on the other when action is taken on its behalf. It is an extremely deceptive and dangerous doctrine having manifested itself in the past as The Inquisition, for example. Today, the dangers are far greater, but far more deceptive and cloaked.

You say you are trying to spread awareness, yet you refuse to accept responsibility.

I take full responsibility for every single word I write on this forum. I already told you that. What do you want?

You are the force behind the finger being pointed, you had a thought, you took care of it, let it blossom, put enough action and energy in it to raise a finger, but no more.

Excuse me, but this is not a committee; it is a discussion forum. If any action is to be taken, the issue must first be raised (pointed to), and then discussed. So far, I see no reason to take any action regarding this issue, since the action that must be taken is on the shoulders of those who advocate the erroneous doctrine to which I point. Now, Muslims take it upon themselves to take action against Christians, and vice versa, but those actions tend to be violent and non-productive, leading instead to more violence and less understanding.

You are like one staring at the sun. You see the harm that can be caused by it, yet you fail to see the good that also comes from it. Christianity has done some good as well.

Unfortunately, your analogy is an extremely poor one. The benefit or harm done by the Sun is completely impersonal and indiscriminate. There is no intent behind the result at all, and therefore, no blame.

The Christian, on the other hand, is acting out of a sense of moral Good. He has an agenda. What he fails to see is that his action has a counter-action, which is negative, the effects of which are not readily apparent. In addition, the action taken by Christians always harbors an ulterior motive. It is not unconditional. There is a price to be paid for such Goodness, and, in the long run, is not worth it.

Convictions are developed when one forms belief and manifests the belief in their reality.

You can have all the conviction in the world, but still be wrong, since you base such conviction on belief, rather than reality. Belief is a model of reality; it is not reality itself. Nazis held the greatest conviction for their beliefs, but enough people did not agree, and decided to defeat them. We must return to the wisdom of the Pointing Finger and learn, once again, to see, rather than to merely believe. Many have died for their convictions, but no one to date has ever perished in the name of the Pointing Finger.

You cannot say with a conscience that all Christians are wrong, if you can...

If you are a Christian, you must, by default, adopt the doctrine which states that ONLY through someone called 'Jesus Christ' will you be 'saved'. There is NO OTHER WAY! PERIOD! In foisting this dogma onto the heads of everyone else, whether they agree or not, I can state, without question, that, yes indeed, ALL CHRISTIANS ARE WRONG!

You try to sound enlightened, if you are, why are you pointing at others?

I assume you mean by 'pointing' that I am being accusative. It does not make sense to accuse anyone of nurturing a belief in an erroneous doctrine. That is not what I am doing. I am simply pointing to the erroneous doctrine to draw attention to it. Accusation is another matter. That comes later, when destructive action is taken based upon an erroneous doctrine. Illumination of the problem is not blame.

You have said to spread awareness and hope for change, but you are a finger. You are a mindless finger after all, incapable of thought or reason.

That is correct. The finger has no thought, belief, or doctrine behind it. It is completely empty. It just sees, without thought.

If you are but a finger, although an enlightened one, how do you know what to point at?

By seeing what the light reveals hidden in the darkness.

If you are nothing but a tool to shed light, why illuminate the dead? If you want to illumine the living, you must find reason and compassion, but a finger has not these. You must feel compassion not only for the victims, but for the aggressors, for they are victims as well, being led astray and committing acts because someone else pointed their finger.

The empty, mindless, blameless and thoughless Pointing Finger is ruthless and brutally honest in its pointing to reality. It cares not what is revealed, just as the Sun cares not where its rays shine, nor what they reveal.

Only look. See?

Nothing more; nothing less.

Do not think. Do not reason. Do not formulate beliefs or convictions, ideas, concepts, conjectures or notions.

1st Observer: "The flag is moving"
2nd Observer: "Wrong! The wind is moving"
3rd Observer: "Both wrong!. Flag and wind are both moving"
Passerby: "All wrong! Your minds are moving!"

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

While I still find faults in your argument, I will let this issue go. But please re-read some of our posts and see where you contradict yourself.
Other than that, hope to see you around on the forums
Later godnotgod.

 

[godnotgod]

While I still find faults in your argument, I will let this issue go. But please re-read some of our posts and see where you contradict yourself.
Other than that, hope to see you around on the forums
Later godnotgod.

Thanks, Heathen! It is a pleasure. Just curious, though:

How do you direct your compassion in alleviating suffering in the world?:candle:

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Thanks, Heathen! It is a pleasure. Just curious, though:

How do you direct your compassion in alleviating suffering in the world?:candle:

There is suffering in this world, and it is tragic, but it is beyond my capabilities to alleviate the suffering in this world. I help where I see need, but condemning a whole belief system, in my opinion, alleviates nothing.

 

[godnotgod]

There is suffering in this world, and it is tragic, but it is beyond my capabilities to alleviate the suffering in this world. I help where I see need, but condemning a whole belief system, in my opinion, alleviates nothing.

I don't recall ever "condemning a whole belief system". I did say, however, that Christians are wrong in regards to their claim that their belief system is the only valid player, all others be dammed. So tell me, now: who is it that is doing the condemning, and what is your opinion of a system which props itself up as the only path to Truth, while openly condemning everyone else, even as being Evil and manufactured by Satan?

The topic here is only whether Christianity incorporates pagan ideas, but since you raised the issue of right and wrong, I responded. But as far as I am concerned, it is enough to bring to light the fact that there is first a connection between paganism and Christianity, and secondly, exactly what that connection entails. Some aspects of the connection are rather benign, such as that of the Christmas tree, while others, primarily those of blood sacrifice and the scapegoat as devices for sin remission, need to be questioned as to their validity.

Don't you think that suffering is caused by ignorance, and that pointing to the cause of that ignorance is the first step in alleviating that suffering? Drawing attention to something is not condemnation, is it?