Yes, his "big thing" was the killing of the celestial bull... it symbolizes the procession of the equinoxes, the spring equinox moved out of the constellation taurus, ending the age of the bull...
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Is Christianity based upon Pagan ideas?
- Thread starter godnotgod
- Start date
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
"Killing the Celestial Bull" just sounds epic, it would go well as a band name.
Thanks for explaining how it fits together
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Some ideas most definitely. The image of Satan, Patron Saints, and holidays are just a few of them.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Why should the Christian Church try to use anything from a pagan culture? Officially, they would (should) have rejected all pagan imagery and idols, not incorporate them as a means of gaining converts. That is lying, and shape-shifting of the worst kind. The official line of the Church is that theirs represents the One True God, all others need not apply, but instead, the Church deliberately incorporated pagan imagery and ideas:
"...the Virgin of Guadalupe was presented to the Aztecs as a sort of "Christianised" Tonantzin, necessary for the clergymen to convert the Indians to their Faith. As Jacques Lafaye wrote in Quetzalcoatl and Guadalupe, "...as the Christians built their first churches with the rubble and the columns of the ancient pagan temples, so they often borrowed pagan customs for their own cult purposes."
Wikipedia
The truth is that you had a patriarchal, monotheistic culture attempting to convert members of an Indio, matriarchal culture. When it did not work, the Church used trickery. Ask any educated Chicano.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Well, the Order of Nazorean Essenes would disagree with you, and their order has been around since before Yeshua. They themselves claim not only Buddhistic inluences, but also Hindu, Gnostic, and Manichean influences.
Sorry, but it's not enough to simply dismiss other ideas as lacking credibility without explanation. Standing behind the color of mainstream doctrinal authority won't work.
Please remember that early Christian cult was considered so much a fringe belief system that they crucified its leader for the beliefs he expounded.
So far, you have said nothing, except "nonsense", which means nada.
godnotgod
Thou art That
"...the real Pagan-Christian similarities are not details of the myths. Each ancient religion had its own myths. No other Pagan godman was born on December 25th, in a manger, with a virgin mother named Mary, and shepherd outside singing.
What Pagan religions shared with each other and with Christianity was not myths but religious ideas—basic notions about the shape of the universe, the human soul and its eternal destiny, and about Gods and their powers and place in the universe. The Christian and Pagan myths are similar because they were made up to fit religious ideas that are similar.
By the time Jesus brought salvation, the idea of eternal life had been a part of Mediterranean religions for three thousand years.
Christians believe in eternal life—but Paganism believed in it first."
Mithras Inscriptions in a Mithraeum (temple of Mithras) in Rome read:
"reborn and created for delights," and "you have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood."
POCM Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth > POCM > Christianity is another ancient Pagan religion.
The truth of the matter is that, by incorporating pagan ideas into its doctrinal beliefs, Christianity continued on as a pagan religion itself, and that is what it remains. Because it has at its very core the belief that ritual blood sacrifice magically absolves SIN, it remains a belief system based upon superstition and ignorance. If it were not, there would not exist the continuing necessity for the belief in ritual blood sacrifice, for example, as a means of absolving SIN. True spiritual enlightenment brings with it the realization that such rituals are based upon fear rather than understanding.
It is NOT a transcendent practice, such as Buddhism is.
What Pagan religions shared with each other and with Christianity was not myths but religious ideas—basic notions about the shape of the universe, the human soul and its eternal destiny, and about Gods and their powers and place in the universe. The Christian and Pagan myths are similar because they were made up to fit religious ideas that are similar.
By the time Jesus brought salvation, the idea of eternal life had been a part of Mediterranean religions for three thousand years.
Christians believe in eternal life—but Paganism believed in it first."
Mithras Inscriptions in a Mithraeum (temple of Mithras) in Rome read:
"reborn and created for delights," and "you have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood."
POCM Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth > POCM > Christianity is another ancient Pagan religion.
The truth of the matter is that, by incorporating pagan ideas into its doctrinal beliefs, Christianity continued on as a pagan religion itself, and that is what it remains. Because it has at its very core the belief that ritual blood sacrifice magically absolves SIN, it remains a belief system based upon superstition and ignorance. If it were not, there would not exist the continuing necessity for the belief in ritual blood sacrifice, for example, as a means of absolving SIN. True spiritual enlightenment brings with it the realization that such rituals are based upon fear rather than understanding.
It is NOT a transcendent practice, such as Buddhism is.
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Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Says who?
Incorporated ideas to make those of the other faith understand, yeah. However, you seem to have an idea of the Pope of days of old sitting upon his throne in the Vatican and saying, "Hey, we can't get those pagans in Mexico to worship our God, what should we do? Any suggestions guys?" "I think we should turn one of their important deities into a saint. What about that woman deity?" Of course not.
I still believe you're wrong.
What is more likely to have happened is one of the Pagans converted, and saw similarities between Tonantzin and Mary, and when he began preaching to his friends, he pointed out the similarities, and when someone else converted because of him, they added a bit more of Tonantzin, using pagan imagery and ideas to communicate the message across. "You see her over there? She's not a goddess, she's a servant of the one God! You see, we've been worshipping the creation, not the creator" and stuff. As time goes by, more and more is used, and one ends up with a mainstream bunch of people who are still revering the same deity, but who plays less of a role. Eventually, all the new converts seem to hold a similar belief, but they're still calling themselves Catholic, so the church says "Sure, I guess, if you can see the similarities between this goddess and Mary, then sure, she's Mary. Anything if it helps you in your following of God." or something like that. Deliberate? Not really, just a small sacrifice for them to make to bring people officially into Catholicism. It happens in many religions.
Circle_One
Well-Known Member
From a post I made 5 years ago on almost this same subject.
Circle_One said:
Bware
I'm the Jugganaut!!
The problem with this whole thing though is that modern Christianity's teachings have nothing to do with Jesus's original teachings. The whole basis of the Christian faith now is the death of god in human form and resurrection to wash our sins away, which, according to all this Mithra stuff, existed for thousands of years before Christ.Says who?
[/i]
Incorporated ideas to make those of the other faith understand, yeah. However, you seem to have an idea of the Pope of days of old sitting upon his throne in the Vatican and saying, "Hey, we can't get those pagans in Mexico to worship our God, what should we do? Any suggestions guys?" "I think we should turn one of their important deities into a saint. What about that woman deity?" Of course not.
I still believe you're wrong.
What is more likely to have happened is one of the Pagans converted, and saw similarities between Tonantzin and Mary, and when he began preaching to his friends, he pointed out the similarities, and when someone else converted because of him, they added a bit more of Tonantzin, using pagan imagery and ideas to communicate the message across. "You see her over there? She's not a goddess, she's a servant of the one God! You see, we've been worshipping the creation, not the creator" and stuff. As time goes by, more and more is used, and one ends up with a mainstream bunch of people who are still revering the same deity, but who plays less of a role. Eventually, all the new converts seem to hold a similar belief, but they're still calling themselves Catholic, so the church says "Sure, I guess, if you can see the similarities between this goddess and Mary, then sure, she's Mary. Anything if it helps you in your following of God." or something like that. Deliberate? Not really, just a small sacrifice for them to make to bring people officially into Catholicism. It happens in many religions.
Yall no me, I don't believe any of it, but it's interesting.
opcorn:
Imagery is imagery, there are similar motifs throughout religion, and for Christians, who did not have religious imagery in the past, converting already existing art to show their religious ideas was efficient...
It isn't trickery to show some of the comparable parts of two religions...
And they also hold no direct link to the Essenes of the past... they claim to be "a modern ressurection"...
Then why post all those supposed similar details?
And?
Good, Jesus was not created... and Mithras killed a bull, so there is nothing there...
Unless it is true...
In the version where I've seen Dionysus die, he actually wasn't the son of a mortal woman, but the Goddess Demeter... Could you provide the cross as well? I've read about him being eaten, but not dying on a cross...
Have to ask for a source here
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Hehe yeah, I couldn't agree more.The problem with this whole thing though is that modern Christianity's teachings have nothing to do with Jesus's original teachings. The whole basis of the Christian faith now is the death of god in human form and resurrection to wash our sins away, which, according to all this Mithra stuff, existed for thousands of years before Christ.
Yall no me, I don't believe any of it, but it's interesting.
I can understand why most Christians believe him to be Divine, though.However, I don't believe Jesus was God on Earth or anything like that (if I did, wouldn't I be a Christian?
), and I believe the Bible in quite a number of cases has been altered - sometimes possibly knowingly (for clarification purposes, forward a theological concept, etc) and sometimes unknowingly (misremembering oral transmission, remembering words incorrectly, etc).However, despite that, I still hold Jesus as one of the greatest sages, and my personal favourite.
I agree, it is interesting.
But for some reason, I never could get into mystery groups and stuff, for some reason.
Bware
I'm the Jugganaut!!
I completely agree with you. I think that the messages in the Bible are great in their original form. However so many things have been changed, that now the *truth* that it presents is so skewed that it's hard to tell what's right and what's wrong. Take the flood for instance. When the bible was first translated into mass form (KJV) the translators took the hebrew word "kol" ( whole or all) and "eret"(Earth, ground, soil, land) and automatically took the flood to global proportions, when if you look through out the rest of the Bible, the words kol eret are used several times and they don't refer to the entire world.Hehe yeah, I couldn't agree more.
However, I don't believe Jesus was God on Earth or anything like that (if I did, wouldn't I be a Christian?
However, despite that, I still hold Jesus as one of the greatest sages, and my personal favourite.
I agree, it is interesting.
So because of a bad translation, millions of people who take the book literally are believing things about their religion that are either wrong, or blown WAY out of proportion. This is why I can't put alot of stock in the Bible in it's current form.
Except in no version did Mithra(s), Persian or Roman, die to be ressurected... nor is the Persian Mithra(which is the older one) the same as the Roman Mithras(of which most, if not all, of the knowledge we have post dates Christianity)...
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
The problem with this whole thing though is that modern Christianity's teachings have nothing to do with Jesus's original teachings. The whole basis of the Christian faith now is the death of god in human form and resurrection to wash our sins away, which, according to all this Mithra stuff, existed for thousands of years before Christ.
Yall no me, I don't believe any of it, but it's interesting.
The truth be told, GOD expressed to Adam and Eve how HE was going to redeem them and people have have been plagiarizing that truth ever since but with distorted twists.
Bware
I'm the Jugganaut!!
I will accept that. :yes:
Smoke
Done here.
The Order of Nazorean Essenes (formerly Sons Aumen Israel, formerly Suns Ahman Israel, aka Ahman's Desert Monastery, aka New Qumran) was founded in 1981 by Gilbert Gene Clark (aka David Clark, Davied Israel, Yesai Nasrai and Asayya) (born 6 Sep 1955 in Bexar County, Texas).
It's a splinter group from the Evangelical Church of Christ (originally called the Church of Christ Patriarchal, and now called the Church of the New Covenant in Christ), a polygamist "Latter Day Saint" group founded by a former Mormon who had joined the Apostolic United Brethren (another polygamist group) before announcing that an angel had instructed him to form his own group.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
heh...heh...heh...uh...says Yawheh himself:
"I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
Eighth Commandment
Official Christian doctrine states that the Christian montheistic God is the only One True God.
"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (RSV Exodus 20:3-6)."
Second Commandment
Yawheh commanded the Jews to utterly destroy the heathens (pagans) for their unacceptable practices:
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 20
....and then there are Yeshua's (or perhaps St. Paul's Jesus's) words:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14:6
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godnotgod
Thou art That
It was not founded in 1981: it was restored in 1981.
Here is a statement directly from their website:
"The Order of Nazorean Essenes was restored on January 25, 1981 under the temporary name of Sons Ahman Israel, which is a translation of the name of the ancient Essene Nazorean Temple Order called the B'nia-Amin. This Order, along with the "Listeners" and Amun-il Order make up the holy Order of Nazorean Essenes, or O:N:E:. This Holy Order was re-established by the heavens for the purpose of facilitating a full restoration of the primitive Nazorean Christianity of the first century and the Buddhist Manichaeanism of the 4th, sifting through the dross of ages of neglect and corruption, and bequeathing to its members a pure canon of Nazirutha scripture capable of assisting them in their quest for perfection and purification from all that is inferior."
"The Order of Nazorean Essenes is a Buddhist branch of Original Christiantiy. We accept the Gnostic Yeshu but reject the Christian Jesus. We accept the Bonpo Buddha Shenrab but reject the Indian Shakyamuni. The synthesis of true Nazorean Chrisitanity and true Mahayana Buddhism was firmly established for us by the great Gnostic prophet Mani who lived in the third century A.D.."
"...the Essenes and the Nazoreans... rejected the Jewish Old Testament and the Jerusalem Sacrificial Cult and were hated by the five other death cults of their area. These Essenes and Nazoreans of Palestine were descended from even more ancient sects going back to Egypt, Syria, Iran, and elsewhere. The Roman Catholic “Church Fathers”, ignorant of so many things, pretended that Gnosticism began as a heretical response to their form of Christianity, but this is most certainly false. Gnosticism was much older and was the belief system of the original followers of Yeshu (Jesus) the Nazorean. Christianity borrowed much from this Gnostic Nazoreanism in the creation of its own system, but in rejecting its Gnostic elements, they rejected its essence. It is impossible to fully grasp Gnosticism, and those who followed it like Yeshu and Miryai, without some understanding of its more ancient roots that predated its first century Palestine manifestation."
There is a wealth of information on their website, here:
Home - The Order of Nazorean Essenes
...and on another, here:
Essene Nazarean Church of Mount Carmel
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