Is Christianity the religion of idolatry?

[Estro Felino]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

 

[rocala]

just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.

But was she? I have read that some Christians believe that she was the mother of the human part, but the divine part was entirely independent of such a biological process. I would be interested in the views of others.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But was she? I have read that some Christians believe that she was the mother of the human part, but the divine part was entirely independent of such a biological process. I would be interested in the views of others.

The Hail Mary prayer says she is...

Hail, Mary, full of grace,​

the Lord is with thee.​

Blessed art thou amongst women​

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.​

Holy Mary, Mother of God,​

pray for us sinners,​

now and at the hour of our death.​

Amen.​

 

[rocala]

The Hail Mary prayer says she is...

Attendance at a Christian service was compulsory throughout my school days, plus for some time I went to Sunday school. I never once heard this prayer, so I can not regard it as representative of all Christians.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Attendance at a Christian service was compulsory throughout my school days, plus for some time I went to Sunday school. I never once heard this prayer, so I can not regard it as representative of all Christians.

Maybe it's a Catholic thing.

ETA: Wikipedia calls it a Christian prayer...

The Hail Mary (Latin: Ave Maria) or Angelical salutation[1][2] is a traditional Christian prayer addressing Mary, the mother of Jesus.​

​

Hail Mary - Wikipedia​

 

[Rival]

Attendance at a Christian service was compulsory throughout my school days, plus for some time I went to Sunday school. I never once heard this prayer, so I can not regard it as representative of all Christians.

This is a Catholic prayer. It's ubiquitous. It's part of the rosary.

Those other Christians you mention are Nestorians and I haven't heard of any til they went out of style in the first millennium.

 

[rocala]

Those other Christians you mention are Nestorians and I haven't heard of any til they went out of style in the first millennium.

But I would not say that makes their beliefs any less valid.

 

[Rival]

But I would not say that makes their beliefs any less valid.

There aren't any here though, as they would be schismatics and not belong in any Western church. So if there are some in churches you've been to they would not be considered orthodox. All small o orthodox Christians believe in the three creeds, early councils etc. and these anathematise Nestorianism, Arianism etc. This has been the case since basically the 10thc. and even after the Reformation. In the West the main heresy was Arianism, usually among the Germanic tribes, but was generally gone by the 7thc. Nestorianism was mostly in the East.

I'm saying all of this because I've often been confused by a lot of what I hear on here from people who have attended Protestant churches where no creeds are said, and the Christology among layfolks tends to be heterodox in ways they don't realise until they leave. This seems to be very common and leads to a lot of misunderstanding of what Christianity actually is, what the councils and creeds say. This leads to ideas about just how many differences there are between Catholicism/Orthodoxy/Protestantism being way overstated, when really their basic beliefs are exactly the same. (Apostles Creed, Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, Athanasian Creed) and many councils, including the council of Chalcedon which specifies this issue (that Christ has 2 natures in perfect unity, not mixed, neither subordinate to the other, making Christ both true God and true Man). This anathematises Nestorianism, which believes these natures are separate to the point Christ and Jesus are two different entities; they call Mary 'Christotokos' (Christ-Bearer) instead of Theotokos (God-bearer) because they don't believe Mary gave birth to God. This council is what all Western Churches teach and all orthodox Eastern Churches teach as of 451 (Council of Chalcedon), so Mary is the God-bearer, Theotokos.

So any Western Christian arguing Mary is not the Mother of God has been considered a heretic for the last 1500 years So errr... not valid I'm afraid.

 

[Estro Felino]

But was she? I have read that some Christians believe that she was the mother of the human part, but the divine part was entirely independent of such a biological process. I would be interested in the views of others.

My point was: is that what makes Christianity an idolatrous religion?

Because all Christians consider Mary Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, God.

 

[MikeF]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

If idolatry is defined as the worship of false gods, wouldn't any other religion with different gods consider Christianity idolatry?

I am also curious as to whether the veneration and worship of saints in some forms of Christianity would be considered idolatrous to Christian sects that do not.

 

[Rival]

If idolatry is defined as the worship of false gods, wouldn't any other religion with different gods consider Christianity idolatry?

I am also curious as to whether the veneration and worship of saints in some forms of Christianity would be considered idolatrous to Christian sects that do not.

The Saints aren't worshipped. That's a misconception.

 

[Estro Felino]

If idolatry is defined as the worship of false gods, wouldn't any other religion with different gods consider Christianity idolatry?

Yes...but isn't money a false god as well?
Yet many people worship it and don't consider themselves idolaters.


Why is that?

I am also curious as to whether the veneration and worship of saints in some forms of Christianity would be considered idolatrous to Christian sects that do not.

Veneration means respect.
Meaning: God is worshipped by Christians. Catholics venerate saints, which means they respect them as role models. But they are not deities. They are humans who sinned as well, but their life was exemplary.

 

[MikeF]

Yes...but isn't money a false god as well?
Yet many people worship it and don't consider themselves idolaters.


Why is that?

Are the various attitudes toward monetary systems equivalent to religious worship? I don't think so. Money isn't considered sentient, for example.

Veneration means respect.
Meaning: God is worshipped by Christians. Catholics venerate saints, which means they respect them as role models. But they are not deities. They are humans who sinned as well, but their life was exemplary.

There are more versions of gods than the Abrahamic conception you are specifically referring to. What attributes place a conceived entity within the category of gods? If Catholic Saints are considered to have power to intercede in the world, that would seem to meet a common element attributed to the category 'gods'.

 

[Estro Felino]

Are the various attitudes toward monetary systems equivalent to religious worship?

Yes, absolutely.
Since certain people cannot live, unless they possess a certain amount of money. They cannot breathe, they go crazy.
That's what worshipping is. Spiritual addiction.
And they forget that they will die, whereas their money will remain, and all those efforts will have been vain.
For it is written in James 5

Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

I don't think so. Money isn't considered sentient, for example.

But it's considered more important than anything else. More important than God Himself by certain theists.

If Catholic Saints are considered to have power to intercede in the world, that would seem to meet a common element attributed to the category 'gods'.

First of all, Saints have no power. Absolutely no power. Only God does. Saints intercede, which means they ask God for miracles on the faithful's behalf, but God can decide to grant them or not to grant them.
Is that a power? No, it's not.

 

[wellwisher]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

Idolatry can be understood as being connected to an art effect. A good work of art is designed to get a reaction from the audience. A good work of art can induce feelings and trigger an extrapolation of the imagination. The art speaks to the unconscious mind and can move one like it has a magical power. But in reality this power comes from within the audience, and can become projected; an overlay onto reality, giving the work of art an enhanced prestige. Some are willing to pay $millions to own this power.

The golden calf in the story of Moses was a well made work of art constructed of gold. It had the prestige of gold. This by itself would already have an awe effect due to what the gold could buy. The sculpture of the golden calf was a nurturing symbol ; baby cow, and could trigger the unconscious mind such that many would assume it was a god. It appeared to have magical powers, via their own triggered inner projection and group think.

In this sense, many Liberal Atheists practice idolatry in the form of worshipping magic words; pronouns, and via the overreaction to religious symbols like the cross; hate crimes. Art can move you in many ways good or bad. To me going to a Catholic Church with all the art, from stain glass, relief drawings, painted ceilings, sculptures, the architecture, fancy alters with gold trimming, etc sets an ambiance. But is not an idol trigger in terms worship. The vampire may be afraid of the cross. That is idolatry since the vampire gives the cross a special power of life and death.

Capitalism is full of idols from the latest fashions, which make us feel on the cutting edge; magic designer clothes. It could also be musicians whose music can trigger obsessive emotions in their groupies. Religions tend to be less idolatrous, since they deal in imagery within their minds. The art is more for ambiance, so the mind can wander, within the inner realm of worship.

The Atheist tend to get more hung up on the art effect, but in a negative way. "Blessed are the poor" is partly about the poor not being able to use material things, for their private idols, since they have little money to buy idols for their ego.

 

[rocala]

Are the various attitudes toward monetary systems equivalent to religious worship?

It is not just monetary systems that can raise such questions. There used to be an RF regular, a man from the U.S. who came across as a pretty devout Roman Catholic. Somebody challenged him on some political point, and he replied that if it comes to religion versus patriotism, his patriotism wins every time.
I am unsure how people can arrive at such a belief, but I bet he is not the only one.

 

[LuisDantas]

Worship is such a vaguely defined word that it is difficult to use it in anything resembling an objective way.

Both for praise and criticism it can be easily deployed as well as avoided just because.

For instance, Catholic doctrine specifically categorizes worship of god, saints and Mary Mother of God with different words (Latria, Dulia and Hiperdulia respectively), so we end up having to decide which of those (if any) qualify as proper worship and which are in fact idolatry.

It is really very arbitrary. If you call idolatry the worship of an "untrue" "god" then it is just as arbitrary.

 

[Rival]

It is not just monetary systems that can raise such questions. There used to be an RF regular, a man from the U.S. who came across as a pretty devout Roman Catholic. Somebody challenged him on some political point, and he replied that if it comes to religion versus patriotism, his patriotism wins every time.
I am unsure how people can arrive at such a belief, but I bet he is not the only one.

It's a bizarrely Protestant take. He lives in a largely Prot nation though so I'm not susrprised he has that attitude. For many Protestants, the government of a state is in charge of Church affairs (e.g., the Anglican Church) and with form of Erastianism. Since the Church and State are seen as the same entity, there's no meaningful difference between them. This is decidedly not a Catholic position though.

 

[MikeF]

Yes, absolutely.
Since certain people cannot live, unless they possess a certain amount of money. They cannot breathe, they go crazy.
That's what worshipping is. Spiritual addiction.
And they forget that they will die, whereas their money will remain, and all those efforts will have been vain.
For it is written in James 5

But it's considered more important than anything else. More important than God Himself by certain theists.

Opinion noted. I'm skeptical as to how widely this opinion is shared. So, to summarize, if anyone values anything more than they value your conceived entity, those things have been deified and therefore fall within the general category of gods?

First of all, Saints have no power. Absolutely no power. Only God does. Saints intercede, which means they ask God for miracles on the faithful's behalf, but God can decide to grant them or not to grant them.
Is that a power? No, it's not.

Opinion noted. How widely is it shared? If Saints have no actual power, why appeal to them at all? Why not make ones appeals directly the one granting or withholding power, action, intersession, etc?

As an outsider, all the statuary, imagery, medallions, etc of saints, along with ritualistic behaviors associated with them seem indistinguishable from those associated with pagan and polytheistic beliefs. A Saint Christopher medal seems no different than any other talisman found in other religions, for example.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.

Don't all denominations see all the rest has having false beliefs? Whether that rises to being called idolatry in those with false beliefs depends on which words one chooses, but I'd say that any differences in opinion about gods between denominations are understood as idolatry. Look at how often the believers depict unbelievers as idolators for what they frames as worshiping themselves rather than gods.

I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

They are both human in my estimation, which is why they both appear in human beings and why they can't easily be teased apart. In this atheist's estimation, man honors himself by attributing the psychological qualities unique to man to a god that he imagines instilled them into him ("made in his image"), but that I see as the outcome of a naturalistic process.

Imagine how the birds would frame things if they could frame anything. Flight would be seen as a divine gift, with bats and insects seen as either partially blessed by the bird god (like angels) or else as demons stealing gifts from their gods to give to impure life that sucks blood and which cannot produce shelled eggs.

The Saints aren't worshipped.

We're in the middle of a nine-day celebration (novena) of San Andres (St. Andrew) where I live. I just got up to shut the door when more bottle rockets (cohetes) began exploding much to my dogs' chagrin (different from the fireworks shown below; cohetes just explode loudly with no color show). This article is two years old, but the festival occurs every year in late November. Maybe this isn't worship to you, but it certainly qualifies as idolatry to me (note the use of the phrase Eucharistic adoration below):