Is Christianity the religion of idolatry?

[Rival]

We're in the middle of a nine-day celebration (novena) of San Andres (St. Andrew) where I live. I just got up to shut the door when more bottle rockets (cohetes) began exploding much to my dogs' chagrin (different from the fireworks shown below; cohetes just explode loudly with no color show). This article is two years old, but the festival occurs every year in late November. Maybe this isn't worship to you, but it certainly qualifies as idolatry to me:

Similar things happened at various coronations, but we don't and never have worshipped any of our kings or queens

 

[rocala]

It is really very arbitrary. If you call idolatry the worship of an "untrue" "god" then it is just as arbitrary.

So much of what has been covered in this thread comes down to "arbitrary". Take an earlier post on the subject of what Christians believe and what is heretical. Who gave us these definitions? Christians did, or more specifically those schools of thought that were luck to survive. But why? We don't ask terrorists for their definition of terrorism, quite the reverse in fact.

When I talk of Christians I am largely referring to the beliefs of individuals not organised bodies. It does give some startlingly different results and of course complicates things further.

 

[Estro Felino]

Opinion noted. I'm skeptical as to how widely this opinion is shared. So, to summarize, if anyone values anything more than they value your conceived entity, those things have been deified and therefore fall within the general category of gods?

Exactly.

Opinion noted. How widely is it shared? If Saints have no actual power, why appeal to them at all? Why not make ones appeals directly the one granting or withholding power, action, intersession, etc?

Because they persuade God, because they are with Him in Paradise. So they have more chances.

As an outsider, all the statuary, imagery, medallions, etc of saints, along with ritualistic behaviors associated with them seem indistinguishable from those associated with pagan and polytheistic beliefs.

Pagans could be spiritual, as well.
There were the Vestals in Ancient Rome that used to take the perpetual vow of chastity.

Christianity is accused of preserving values of Paganism. That's not something shameful, because Paganism was incredibly rich in positive aspects. Of course the negative aspects were absolutely rejected.

A Saint Christopher medal seems no different than any other talisman found in other religions, for example.

If people believe that that medal has some special power, yes, that's idolatry.
But if they wear it as a symbol, it's not.

 

[Bthoth]

The Hail Mary prayer says she is...

Hail, Mary, full of grace,​

the Lord is with thee.​

Blessed art thou amongst women​

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.​

Holy Mary, Mother of God,​

pray for us sinners,​

now and at the hour of our death.​

Amen.​

Very catholic.

 

[Bthoth]

Worship is such a vaguely defined word that it is difficult to use it in anything resembling an objective way.

Both for praise and criticism it can be easily deployed as well as avoided just because.

For instance, Catholic doctrine specifically categorizes worship of god, saints and Mary Mother of God with different words (Latria, Dulia and Hiperdulia respectively), so we end up having to decide which of those (if any) qualify as proper worship and which are in fact idolatry.

It is really very arbitrary. If you call idolatry the worship of an "untrue" "god" then it is just as arbitrary.

big business......... practically an ancient egyptian form of required compliance

 

[Rival]

So much of what has been covered in this thread comes down to "arbitrary". Take an earlier post on the subject of what Christians believe and what is heretical. Who gave us these definitions? Christians did, or more specifically those schools of thought that were luck to survive. But why? We don't ask terrorists for their definition of terrorism, quite the reverse in fact.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it arbitrary; there are good reasons for these theologians to have reached these conclusions. The main task though is to create a coherent community, which can't be done if people within that community have such different beliefs that they can't participate in others' rituals and other communal activities. I wouldn't say it's any more arbitrary than the demand to worship to Roman Emperor, which gave a unity to the Roman Empire. All religions have done this and have certain requirements, even Pagan ones have certain beliefs that aren't really questionable. It comes down to community coherence, and we have to remember that all of this theological battling was happening as the Western Roman Empire was collapsing, and creating a coherent Church eased the situation and kept that sense of shared identity and community even as the Empire collapsed around them.

 

[Rival]

Very catholic.

You think Mary as Mother of God is not a Protestant doctrine?

 

[Rival]

Here are some famous Protestants on Mary, Mother of God,

Zwingli said, "I esteem immensely the Mother of God" and "The more the honour and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honour given to Mary should grow".

Despite Luther's polemics against his Roman Catholic opponents over issues concerning Mary and the saints, theologians appear to agree that Luther adhered to the Marian decrees of the ecumenical councils and dogmas of the church. He held fast to the belief that Mary was a perpetual virgin and the Theotokos or Mother of God.

John Calvin accepted Mary's perpetual virginity and the title "Mother of God", in a qualified sense.

Karl Barth (1886–1968), a Reformed Protestant, was a leading 20th century theologian. Aware of the common dogmatic tradition of the early Church, Barth fully accepted the dogma of Mary as the Mother of God.

Presently the Lutheran World Federation[16] accepts the teachings of the Council of Ephesus and other ecumenical councils of the patristic-era Church, including the formulation "Mother of God" as a function of Christ's hypostatic union.

Protestant views on Mary - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Council of Ephesus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Council of Ephesus was a council of Christian bishops convened in Ephesus (near present-day Selçuk in Turkey) in AD 431 by the Roman Emperor Theodosius II. This third ecumenical council, an effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom,[1] confirmed the original Nicene Creed,[2] and condemned the teachings of Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople, who held that the Virgin Mary may be called the Christotokos, "Christ-bearer" but not the Theotokos, "God-bearer". It met in June and July 431 at the Church of Mary in Ephesus in Anatolia.

[...]

The council declared Mary as Theotokos (Mother of God).

If you don't believe Mary gave birth to God, what do you believe about Jesus?
About the councils?
The Fathers?
The whole of orthodox Christianity?

 

[metis]

Gandhi felt that prayer is for us, not God. IOW, it's our contemplation of right v wrong that's important so that our actions become more considerate and loving towards all. This approach is very compatible with Buddhism as well, especially the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.

 

[Estro Felino]

Gandhi felt that prayer is for us, not God. IOW, it's our contemplation of right v wrong that's important so that our actions become more considerate and loving towards all. This approach is very compatible with Buddhism as well, especially the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.

It's undeniable.
Christianity and Buddhism have so much in common.

 

[mangalavara]

My point was: is that what makes Christianity an idolatrous religion?

Because all Christians consider Mary Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, God.

I don’t know too much about Jewish views on Christianity as an idolatrous religion. When it comes to Islam, I am aware that the Qur’an criticizes ‘the Christians’ for saying that ‘God is one of three’ and that ‘God has a son.’ Other than that, I once saw a video in which a Muslim leader called Trinitarianism ‘pagan’ in front of a Catholic priest. Moreover, many Muslims on the internet like to call Trinitarianism ‘polytheistic.’

While a Reformed Christian of the conservative variety might call a Catholic an ‘idolator,’ a Sunni Muslim of the conservative variety might call both of them ‘idolators.’ Just as the Reformed person does not understand Catholic veneration of the Virgin, the Sunni person does not understand Trinitarianism. I think this is what it ultimately comes down to—different groups not understanding each other. So, it’s not that Christianity is an idolatrous religion, it’s just that some people don’t understand Christian beliefs.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don’t know too much about Jewish views on Christianity as an idolatrous religion. When it comes to Islam, I am aware that the Qur’an criticizes ‘the Christians’ for saying that ‘God is one of three’ and that ‘God has a son.’ Other than that, I once saw a video in which a Muslim leader called Trinitarianism ‘pagan’ in front of a Catholic priest. Moreover, many Muslims on the internet like to call Trinitarianism ‘polytheistic.’

While a Reformed Christian of the conservative variety might call a Catholic an ‘idolator,’ a Sunni Muslim of the conservative variety might call both of them ‘idolators.’ Just as the Reformed person does not understand Catholic veneration of the Virgin, the Sunni person does not understand Trinitarianism. I think this is what it ultimately comes down to—different groups not understanding each other. So, it’s not that Christianity is an idolatrous religion, it’s just that some people don’t understand Christian beliefs.

That's very nice of you.
However it's absolutely normal that according to other faiths, Christianity is considered profane, idolatrous or similar.
It's useful to discuss why.

 

[PureX]

Any religion can become a false idol. And some religious factions even strive for it.

Also, every religion creates idols of one kind or another, mostly because they are useful at helping people to conceptualize the great mystery we call 'God'. And in every religion, there will be a significant number of people that cannot differentiate between the images and idols and story characterizations and the actual God they are meant to represent. And they may even be encouraged to confuse and conflate these by their religious guides. Sad, but true.

We are what we are.

 

[Bthoth]

I wouldn't go as far as to call it arbitrary; there are good reasons for these theologians to have reached these conclusions. The main task though is to create a coherent community, which can't be done if people within that community have such different beliefs that they can't participate in others' rituals and other communal activities. I wouldn't say it's any more arbitrary than the demand to worship to Roman Emperor, which gave a unity to the Roman Empire. All religions have done this and have certain requirements, even Pagan ones have certain beliefs that aren't really questionable. It comes down to community coherence, and we have to remember that all of this theological battling was happening as the Western Roman Empire was collapsing, and creating a coherent Church eased the situation and kept that sense of shared identity and community even as the Empire collapsed around them.

coherence? I love the concept when applied to comprehension but as a contrast, the nazi philosophy is specifically about the same principle.

Look it up. it's rather scary on that scope but

but, if people equally had straight answers it would be easier to trust all at the same time.

 

[Bthoth]

You think Mary as Mother of God is not a Protestant doctrine?

mother nature is the mother (god), not a person named mary.

Jesus was neither god nor the christos, so I do not see mary as special beyond My Mother.

 

[Little Dragon]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

From my external and theologically illiterate perspective.

Christianity appears to have a number of named Gods or godlike entities that can either be communed with or otherwise interacted with.

The major God(s), God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, a tripartite entity, which is either or both 1 and 3 Gods. I am not sure.
The Jesus man/God is included above I guess?
The other major godlike entity is Satan, the enemy of mankind, leader of a host of rebel Angels.
Then we have Mary Mother of God, who is considered by the Catholics to be an intercessory to God that can be revered and prayers offered to.
Then we have the Archangels mentioned in the Biblical Canon; Gabriel Michael and Raphael although other non canon Hebrew scriptures reveal others, such as Azrael, Archangel of Death.
Then we have the "lesser Saints" Of which lucky charms are made of, such as the St Christoper necklace, worn by some Christian travelers, or the relics of these saints kept in holy shrines, often considered to possess holy attributes.

That's my take.

 

[danieldemol]

But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

If this much is true then we are all divine, hence Jesus should be worshiping us as much as some of us worship him in my view.

 

[Bthoth]

If this much is true then we are all divine, hence Jesus should be worshiping us as much as some of us worship him in my view.

He is gone, incapable of consciously debating or arguing facts.

Worship is not what makes a person relevant.

 

[Augustus]

While a Reformed Christian of the conservative variety might call a Catholic an ‘idolator,’ a Sunni Muslim of the conservative variety might call both of them ‘idolators.’ Just as the Reformed person does not understand Catholic veneration of the Virgin, the Sunni person does not understand Trinitarianism. I think this is what it ultimately comes down to—different groups not understanding each other. So, it’s not that Christianity is an idolatrous religion, it’s just that some people don’t understand Christian beliefs.

It’s not necessarily that they don’t understand and this causes others to misinterpret, it is that these other positions in some sense define themselves in opposition to (Catholic) Christianity. Our sense of self often involves denigrating the views of others.

The Protestant wants to show the Catholic as “wrong” as this helps them feel they are right. The Muslim feels the same but about all Christians. The antitheist is not content with seeing religion as simply wrong, they want it to be mendacious and derivative.

All of these make them feel good about themselves.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I mean...it's so clear that other religions consider Christianity idolatry, just because we believe that Mary, a woman from Nazareth, is the Mother of God.
That is, she delivered Jesus, Son of God, and part of the Holy Trinity.
But I believe that it's because we believe there is not a clear line between humane and divine, because they permeate each other in a beautiful communication and it is not possible to say where one starts and the other ends.

Jesus is God. As Monsignor Poma, a Catholic priest once said: Jesus went to the Cross to mean that the sacred is the Humane.

Keep in mind, that idolatry is considered a sin in Christianity too, but we consider idolatry the worship of other things, other than God.
There are people that love money more than God and so they worship money as a idol to preserve, forgetting we are all mortals and that money will remain, we will die.
That's idolatry and that's a deadly sin.
Or some other Christians worship power. That's idolatry.

But worshipping Jesus as Son of God is not idolatry. He is our Salvation, our purpose, our meaning. That means that mankind can evolve into a divine form, and Jesus has taught us why.

So many people start crying hearing young Jesus.

As wonderful as it is being indoctrinated, I prefer to blaze my own wonderful trail. ;0)