Is Communism Inherently Toxic?

[Debater Slayer]

North Korea, China, and the USSR—all totalitarian states, the common factor between which is their communist foundations. There are prosperous socialist countries like Canada, Sweden, and France, and there are capitalist countries like the U.S. and England that have thrived for a long time despite struggling in certain areas. But what about communist countries? Why do you think almost all of the major communist states have either devolved into dictatorships or lent themselves to fascist, bloodthirsty regimes?

Put differently, do you think communism as an ideology is inherently toxic, or has it only been misunderstood or misused this whole time?

 

[Rival]

Inherently toxic.

 

[Revoltingest]

I say not inherently toxic.
But this is viewing it very broadly, which includes small scale communism.
This can be voluntary & successful.
But on a large scale where it's compulsory.....there's a strong tendency towards oppression & inefficiency.

 

[Sunstone]

Communism, like some other ideologies, does not seem in most cases to work well. When an ideology doesn't work well, pressure is placed on the elites whose positions, power, and wealth depend on the ideology to prop up the ideology by force, coercion, and propaganda. This is true of more ideologies than just communism.

 

[YmirGF]

There are prosperous socialist countries like Canada...

Wait, what? When did Canada become a Socialist country? Did I miss the email or something? We just finished a decade of having a "right wing" Conservative government.

In regards to the OP, Communism is inherently toxic. Looks interesting on paper but just doesn't work well in the real world.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Wait, what? When did Canada become a Socialist country? Did I miss the email or something? We just finished a decade of having a "right wing" Conservative government.

In regards to the OP, Communism is inherently toxic. Looks interesting on paper but just doesn't work well in the real world.

So Canada is not a socialist country? I must have had my info mixed up, then. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Sunstone]

When did Canada become a Socialist country? Did I miss the email or something?

Isn't Canada like most First World nations in that it has a mixed economy, both socialist in some respects, and capitalist in other respects? I mean, last I knew, many of your roads are publicly built and maintained, among many other things.

 

[YmirGF]

So Canada is not a socialist country? I must have had my info mixed up, then. Thanks for the correction.

It probably stems from a staunchly Conservative government that enshrined Universal Health Care into our social system decades ago. Some might see that as "socialism" where others might just call it pragmatism.

 

[YmirGF]

Isn't Canada like most First World nations in that it has a mixed economy, both socialist in some respects, and capitalist in other respects? I mean, last I knew, many of your roads are publicly built and maintained, among many other things.

Of course it is, Phil, but using that yardstick you could call every country Socialist, including the good ol' USA.

 

[Revoltingest]

It probably stems from a staunchly Conservative government that enshrined Universal Health Care into our social system decades ago. Some might see that as "socialism" where others might just call it pragmatism.

Canuckistan strikes me as one of the most libertarian (not conservative) countries around.
It's capitalistic.
The Heritage Foundation ranks it as #6 in economic liberty.
http://www.heritage.org/index/
And they're socially libertarian up there.
Some call it "socialist" to have such a generous welfare state, but this is a misapplication of the word.
It's not about government or the community owning the means of production (which socialism is).

 

[Sunstone]

Of course it is, Phil, but using that yardstick you could call every country Socialist, including the good ol' USA.

Saying a country has a mixed economy comprised of both socialist and capitalist elements means you are calling the country "Socialist"? I just keep learning new things from you all the time, Paul!

 

[YmirGF]

Some call it "socialist" to have such a generous welfare state, but this is a misapplication of the word.
It's not about government or the community owning the means of production (which socialism is).

Indeed, we are a generous collection of sots, but not so generous that our brains have rolled out (AKA... socialism).
Heck, in our recent Federal election, the Canadian igloo residents and fur trappers unanimously rejected the only `socialist`party.
Granted, we elected a fellow who has no experience and a family name entitling him to the position, but hey... It`s CANA-DUH!

 

[YmirGF]

Saying a country has a mixed economy comprised of both socialist and capitalist elements means you are calling the country "Socialist"? I just keep learning new things from you all the time, Paul!

They way I read your comment, Phil, was that you were supporting the idea that Cana-duh was a socialist country.... IE. public works etc... If that was not what you were intending, you have my deepest, most profound apologies...

 

[Revoltingest]

Indeed, we are a generous collection of sots, but not so generous that our brains have rolled out (AKA... socialism).
Heck, in our recent Federal election, the Canadian igloo residents and fur trappers unanimously rejected the only `socialist`party.
Granted, we elected a fellow who has no experience and a family name entitling him to the position, but hey... It`s CANA-DUH!

We all elect inexperienced bumblers to office at times.
(Experienced bumblers too.)

 

[metis]

Much like "socialism", which can take different forms, including "communism", communism itself can also take different forms. Jamestown Colony, for example, was communistic, and that was a far cry different than what was created in the Soviet Union..

 

[metis]

None of the countries you pointed out are/were ever communist.

Soviet Russia was capital with some intensely based socialist concepts.
USSR was state capitalist...

You, of course, are entirely correct. According to Marx, communism could only be achieved if it became internationally all-encompassing, so the Soviets and Chinese were only in an earlier stage of socialism that had a strong-arm authoritarian leadership.

 

[Jumi]

Any Communism that came from Lenin or influenced by him is inherently toxic for various reasons. Not that people would like to try it again any time soon. Marxism by itself is less so, but has an amount of craziness in it in my opinion that makes it not worthwhile.

That said a community of people working together toward the same goals is a nice idea. I'm pretty cynical on that happening ever as long as our race exists. I'm expecting us to fight over petty things for as long as we are here.

 

[Penumbra]

North Korea, China, and the USSR—all totalitarian states, the common factor between which is their communist foundations. There are prosperous socialist countries like Canada, Sweden, and France, and there are capitalist countries like the U.S. and England that have thrived for a long time despite struggling in certain areas. But what about communist countries? Why do you think almost all of the major communist states have either devolved into dictatorships or lent themselves to fascist, bloodthirsty regimes?

Put differently, do you think communism as an ideology is inherently toxic, or has it only been misunderstood or misused this whole time?

I'd say that whenever personal economic incentive is removed, an economic system is almost guaranteed to break down.

 

[Penumbra]

Wait, what? When did Canada become a Socialist country? Did I miss the email or something? We just finished a decade of having a "right wing" Conservative government.

Most countries referred to as socialist these days are actually social democracies. This would include Canada, much of Europe, etc. It's a capitalistic system with strong social programs like universal healthcare, welfare for the disabled or impoverished, generally strong labor laws, and so forth.

"Right wing" in Canadian politics is about where the US "left wing" party is. Even our mainstream "left wing" party is hesitant to have social programs as developed as Canada.

 

[Sunstone]

I suspect -- but cannot prove -- that the reason communist ideals apparently resonate with so many people might have something to do with how many (and possibly most) of our hunting gathering ancestors lived. In at least many cases, their societies seem to have had elements that today we often enough associate with communism, or socialism. That's to say, there may be a real sense in which our species is more evolved to live in a relatively egalitarian society than we are in the very stratified hierarchies most of us do live in today.