Is Communism the biblically preferred system?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

why doesn't this clam work? when did Jesus say ALL rich people must give all there money away?

For one thing, the only support you've given for your claim is Mark 10:24, and you had to ignore Mark 10:23 right before it to interpret it the way you did.

name some christians that gave every single last cent to the poor?

If you go back through history, probably millions of Christians took vows of poverty.

I'm sure you can come up with the names of some monks and such just as well as I can

just a side note.... for every "cherry picked " scripture you come back with , i can " cherry pick one that clearly justifies finances. ready when you are.

You can cherry-pick lots of things. What's the larger message of the Bible?

But go for it. Present one piece of scripture that clearly shows that God wants Christians to be rich.

 

[rocka21]

If you go back through history, probably millions of Christians took vows of poverty.

does that make it right? i would not take a vow of sickness either.

anyway, what about today. How many " american" christians take a vow of poverty?

Present one piece of scripture that clearly shows that God wants Christians to be rich.

30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,

how would the rich young ruler receive a hunderedfold? IN THIS TIME!!! ( no vow of poverty there).

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

BINGO!!!


1 Timothy 6:17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;


o my god! did he just say that God gives us riches? he gives us ALL THINGS to enjoy? I wonder why he did not say take a vow of poverty?

i will stop here for now, if you would like another five or ten , just let me know. and don't get me started on the old testament. you will be in big trouble when you see the RICHES they had.

 

[Comprehend]

why would i EVER limit God to an ATM machine? all the silver and gold is his!!!

that is pretty sad...

Please o please tell me that mormons have NO earthly treasures. And if you have ANY, why?

Temple going mormons have promised ALL their belongings to God so none of us have any earthly treasures, they are Gods.

Anyway, you are STILL missing the point. The point is what we SEEK. You spend your religious time seeking earthly riches. We spend our time seeking spiritual riches.

classic folks, just classic. I am " greedy" , but he is not. Notice how he never answer my questions but came back with his own for me.

uh. yep. You are greedy and I am not. You seek to use God like an ATM and I don't. You spend your religious time seeking after earthly riches and I seek after spiritual riches...

Glad you are catching on.

So you know that I have NO spiritual at my church, just worldly? That is what i use church for , huh?

I didn't say you have NO spirituality. I just trusted that you were telling the truth that your church is a prosperity church, if you were telling the truth, then wouldn't a prosperity church focus on prosperity?

BTW- if you would like me to answer your questions, then don't hide them in a post that is not addressed to me hoping you can slide it in there.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

does that make it right? i would not take a vow of sickness either.

Hey... I was only answering your direct question.

anyway, what about today. How many " american" christians take a vow of poverty?

I don't know. How many American Catholic priests are there?

30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,

how would the rich young ruler receive a hunderedfold? IN THIS TIME!!! ( no vow of poverty there).

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

BINGO!!!

Good try, but remember, we were talking about the distinction between material vs. spiritual riches and wealth. Please show that either of these refer material riches and not spiritual ones.

1 Timothy 6:17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;


o my god! did he just say that God gives us riches? he gives us ALL THINGS to enjoy? I wonder why he did not say take a vow of poverty?

Did you actually read that quote?

Well, I can tell you read the words "all things", but it seems you skipped over the "us". How is this any sort of justification for one person to hold wealth in excess of his neighbors? After all, it says that God gave us all things to enjoy.

In more modern language, Paul tells Timothy to instruct the rich to trust in God instead of money. Nothing in there says that believers should pursue material wealth, and certainly not if it means not alleviating the suffering of others.

Since I'm not really sure that you read the verse you cited, I won't assume that you read any further up the page to 1 Tim 6:3-5. Please note the section that I've underlined:

3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

i will stop here for now, if you would like another five or ten , just let me know. and don't get me started on the old testament. you will be in big trouble when you see the RICHES they had.

And since you're Christian and not Jewish, I can only assume you believe that Jesus changed quite a few things. Because of this, I hope that you won't disregard the New Testament while considering the Old (though I'm not holding my breath, since so far you've seemed to be fine with disregarding the New Testament while considering the New Testament).

Frankly, I think you're grasping at straws. Rather than looking for the larger messages of the Bible, you're pulling quotes out of context (both in terms of the chapters in which they're written, and in terms of their relationship to the Bible as a whole) to justify your position.

What do you think the Bible actually says? Do you really believe that it tells you to acquire material wealth, or are you happy to pull out isolated verses to help you feel better about something you decided all on your own?

 

[rocka21]

Temple going mormons have promised ALL their belongings to God so none of us have any earthly treasures, they are Gods.

thats funny. Don't make me quote what kind of house the mormon president lives in.

And what makes you think all my belonging don't belong to god?

I see you still have a computer. Haven't you sold that yet and given it to the poor huh?

uh. yep. You are greedy and I am not. You seek to use God like an ATM and I don't. You spend your religious time seeking after earthly riches and I seek after spiritual riches...

i am glad you know me better than me. Do you follow me around? do you know that i seek
" earthly riches" everyday and not spirital riches?

didn't say you have NO spirituality. I just trusted that you were telling the truth that your church is a prosperity church, if you were telling the truth, then wouldn't a prosperity church focus on prosperity?

wrong again.

I never said my chruch is a " prosperity chruch." We are a chruch of the lord Jesus christ.

and you mormons get mad when others label you as a " cult".

We focus on Jesus. Jesus brings, Love, Joy, Peace, Healing, and prosperity along with many other things.


Just make sure you don't get your Kids any christmas or birthday gifts, because you can use that money for the poor and you must teach them to have " NO earthly possession".

 

[rocka21]

I don't know. How many American Catholic priests are there?

Salaries of diocesan priests vary from diocese to diocese. According to a biennial survey of the National Federation of Priests’ Council, low-end salaries averaged $15,291 per year in 2002; high-end salaries averaged $18,478 per year. In addition to a salary, diocesan priests receive a package of benefits that may include a car allowance, room and board in the parish rectory, health insurance, and a retirement plan.

Diocesan priests who do special work related to the church, such as teaching, usually receive a salary which is less than a lay person in the same position would receive. The difference between the usual salary for these jobs and the salary that the priest receives is called “contributed service.” In some situations, housing and related expenses may be provided; in other cases, the priest must make his own arrangements. Some priests doing special work receive the same compensation that a lay person would receive.

Religious priests take a vow of poverty and are supported by their religious order. Any personal earnings are given to the order. Their vow of poverty is recognized by the Internal Revenue Service, which exempts them from paying Federal income tax.

lets see

free car allowance- 20k
free house - 50 to 100k
heath ins. and retirement- 20k a year.
and 20k in tax free spending cash.

you call this a vow of poverty? cant they live in i one room shack and ride a bike? can't they take that 20k in heathins and retirement and give it away? why do you need a 20k salary? you have free food , and a roof over your head. The church supplies your clothes.

shame on them! 20 thousand dollars a year , when some poor little child in Africa could use that money for a bowl of soup!

now i ask again, can you show me some American christians that give ALL they have to the poor and take NOTHING for themself?

 

[rocka21]

Good try, but remember, we were talking about the distinction between material vs. spiritual riches and wealth. Please show that either of these refer material riches and not spiritual ones.

and you show me that it does not refer to material riches?

Well, I can tell you read the words "all things", but it seems you skipped over the "us". How is this any sort of justification for one person to hold wealth in excess of his neighbors? After all, it says that God gave us all things to enjoy.

yes, whats so hard about it? US, US, US, ........ he gives US all things to enjoy.

and a question, why did he not tell him to tell the rich people to get rid of the wealth?

anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

very good. I glad I don't believe or teach that Godliness is Gain. I give God glory for my Gain , but in no way does it make me any more or less of a christian.

6But godliness with contentment is great gain.

7For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

I am very content with Christ.

17Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


what does he tell the rich people to do? good works,ready to distribute, and willing to Give.

i see no " vows of poverty" here. I see that the rich are blessed and should be a great blessing to others.


You know, some of you will be all upset in Heaven. There are Mansions ( mabey to can ask God to bring your shack), streets of Gold ( god should be ashamed of himself, gold is EVIL). Gates of Pearl ( why not some ole rusty rotted gate?).

and for the mormons, I wonder why the presious " Golden tables" were made out of Gold? How dare God!!! couldn't he use something else? why did not Smith melt them down and give to the poor?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Religious priests take a vow of poverty and are supported by their religious order. Any personal earnings are given to the order. Their vow of poverty is recognized by the Internal Revenue Service, which exempts them from paying Federal income tax.

lets see

free car allowance- 20k
free house - 50 to 100k
heath ins. and retirement- 20k a year.
and 20k in tax free spending cash.

you call this a vow of poverty? cant they live in i one room shack and ride a bike? can't they take that 20k in heathins and retirement and give it away? why do you need a 20k salary? you have free food , and a roof over your head. The church supplies your clothes.

I don't call it a vow of poverty; they do.

And at my wife's parish, the priest accommodations are more like a dorm than a whole house. Each priest just gets his own bedroom, and there's a communal kitchen, bathroom, etc. I think they share one car between the three of them and mainly use it to do church business.

and you show me that it does not refer to material riches?

For Mark 10:30:

Read Mark 10:31 as well: "But many that are first shall be last; and the last first." Spiritual reward in Heaven will be received out opposite to material reward on Earth.

For 2 Cor 8:9:

I think it's obvious if you read the whole chapter. Paul is counselling the Corinthians to do what the Macedonians have done: give as much to the church as they are able. The whole point is that they're trading material riches for spiritual ones. Paul is selling reward in Heaven, not savings bonds.

Again, read the whole thing, not just an isolated passage. Further along in the chapter, Paul puts his words in context:

13Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, 15as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

Paul preaches equality. One person having wealth while another is impoverished is not equality.

yes, whats so hard about it? US, US, US, ........ he gives US all things to enjoy.

"Us" speaks to equality. Disparity of wealth speaks to division.

and a question, why did he not tell him to tell the rich people to get rid of the wealth?

He did, right before the passage you cited from 2 Corinthians:

For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. [...] But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

very good. I glad I don't believe or teach that Godliness is Gain. I give God glory for my Gain , but in no way does it make me any more or less of a christian.

It seems like you only read the words in the Bible you agree with. It didn't say "that Godliness is gain" but "that Godliness leads to financial gain." IOW, you will not become monetarily rich if you are a Christian.

what does he tell the rich people to do? good works,ready to distribute, and willing to Give.

i see no " vows of poverty" here. I see that the rich are blessed and should be a great blessing to others.

The rich are also "they". Paul often makes a distinction between members of the Church and people outside it.

You know, some of you will be all upset in Heaven. There are Mansions ( mabey to can ask God to bring your shack), streets of Gold ( god should be ashamed of himself, gold is EVIL). Gates of Pearl ( why not some ole rusty rotted gate?).

And everyone gets them, right?

It's not wealth that's the problem, it's disparity of wealth.

However, you've hit on something I've noticed myself: it seems like the mainstream Christian version of Heaven is a place where most Christian virtues no longer apply. Avarice, sloth, and lack of charity all seem to be fine there.

 

[Comprehend]

rocka, if your post is directed at me, quote me. Otherwise I will ignore the post. When you fix it, I will respond.