Is consciousness physical or nonphysical?

[Looncall]

Well, is it a physical process or a nonphysical process?

It's a process, so it is neither.

It might make sense to ask what substrate supports the process.For example, the brain is the substrate that consciousness runs in. The wood is the substrate that the fire runs in.

 

[Gambit]

Now we have a way of dealing with context dependence in a system theoretical manner. Not only are they only defined in their context, they also are constantly contributing to that context. This is as self- referential a situation as there is. What it means is that if the context, the particular system, is destroyed or even severely altered, the context defining the functional component will no longer exist and the functional component will also disappear...

Are you arguing that consciousness is a "self-referential" process?

The semantic parallel with language is in the concept of functional component. Pull things apart as reductionism asks us to do and something essential about the system is lost. Philosophically this has revolutionary consequences. The acceptance of this idea means that one recognizes ontological status for something other than mere atoms and molecules. It says that material reality is only a part of that real world we are so anxious to understand. In addition to material reality there are functional components that are also essential to our understanding of any complex reality.

This seems to imply that reality is composed of two fundamental constituents: physical components and nonphysical components.

 

[viole]

Is consciousness physical or nonphysical?

Who knows?

What I know is that it seems to be affected by physical things. Like huge quantities of Vodka.

Ciao

- viole

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Are you arguing that consciousness is a "self-referential" process?

It's the self-referential process, as it is the reference to the self (or construction of).

This seems to imply that reality is composed of two fundamental constituents: physical components and nonphysical components.

Yes, it does. I would argue that that is too simplistic, as "physical" vs. "non-physical" lost most of its meaning with the advent of modern physics, particularly in recent decades.

 

[Laika]

So, is consciousness a physical property? Also, what kind of brain (human, animal)?

Yes, I would assume it is a physical property; and I would also assume that it is both human and animal, but in humans it is more developed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Physical and agree consciousness is an emergent property by which it's measured and decticble.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That doesn't address the question as to whether consciousness is physical or nonphysical. IOW, you're evading the question.

How is it evasive? It speaks to the fact that consciousness has physical components: if not for certain physical things, consciousness does not occur.

Can you point to any non-physical factor that we can say the same for? Any non-physical thing 'X' where we can say "when X was present, consciousness was also present, and when X was removed, consciousness ceased"?

 

[Goblin]

neti neti. i dont think either description would be correct, so i voted both

 

[lovemuffin]

Can you point to any non-physical factor that we can say the same for? Any non-physical thing 'X' where we can say "when X was present, consciousness was also present, and when X was removed, consciousness ceased"?

Qualia, i.e phenomenal properties of experience. Whether or not "qualia" can be reduced to a purely physical description or not is the question, but for dualists and panpsychists the intuition is that they cannot.

 

[Willamena]

This seems to imply that reality is composed of two fundamental constituents: physical components and nonphysical components.

And whatever other categories we care to reduce it to.

 

[Goblin]

pansychism would certainly imply that neither could be totally correct

 

[Gambit]

It's a process, so it is neither.

It might make sense to ask what substrate supports the process.For example, the brain is the substrate that consciousness runs in. The wood is the substrate that the fire runs in.

Well, if it is neither physical nor nonphysical, then what else is it? (Telling me that it is simply a process is not very informative. And telling me what substrate it runs on still does not tell me whether it is a physical or nonphysical process.)

 

[nazz]

This question cannot really be answered without a working definition for the word "physical". Anyone got one that they can fit into their view?

 

[Willamena]

Well, if it is neither physical nor nonphysical, then what else is it? (Telling me that it is simply a process is not very informative. And telling me what substrate it runs on still does not tell me whether it is a physical or nonphysical process.)

It's reality--to reduce it to any other thing is to remove that thing form reality and have it supercede reality.

 

[Gambit]

Who knows?

What I know is that it seems to be affected by physical things. Like huge quantities of Vodka.

I'll grant you that the body influences the mind. But, by the same token, the mind influences the body.

 

[Gambit]

It's the self-referential process, as it is the reference to the self (or construction of).


Yes, it does. I would argue that that is too simplistic, as "physical" vs. "non-physical" lost most of its meaning with the advent of modern physics, particularly in recent decades.

So, what exactly is undergoing a process? What exactly is undergoing a change?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So, what exactly is undergoing a process?

Processes undergo other things. What underlies processes? This depends. However, within the past 24+ hours I've been working and taking breaks to distract myself here, I've covered this twice, and I'm fairly certain that at least one of those times was in a thread you participated in.

 

[Gambit]

Yes, I would assume it is a physical property; and I would also assume that it is both human and animal, but in humans it is more developed.

So, can you please define for us the physical properties of consciousness?

 

[Nakosis]

For something to be physical requires that we can perceive it. We can perceive it being affected, acted upon by other objects we perceive.

What we can't perceive we see as non-physical. Perception requires consciousness. Without consciousness, no perception, nothing to be defined as physical.

Without the physical, there is no thing to be conscious of. Both are an emergent property of dualism.

"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form
Emptiness is not separate from form, form is not separate from emptiness
Whatever is form is emptiness, whatever is emptiness is form."

Buddhist Scriptures: Heart Sutra

 

[Gambit]

Physical and agree consciousness is an emergent property by which it's measured and decticble.

Interesting. What exactly is the measurable and detectable physical property of consciousness?