Is consciousness physical or nonphysical?

[Nakosis]

Hacking the brain?

The researchers basically designed a program that flashes up pictures of maps, banks, and card PINs, and makes a note every time your brain experiences a P300. Afterwards, it’s easy to pore through the data and work out — with fairly good accuracy — where a person banks, where they live, and so on.

You cannot perceive my subjectivity, not unless you believe you have the capacity to perform some kind of "Vulcan mind meld."

Ok, interesting. I'm glad you clarified this.

There's a article about using MRI to monitor blood flow in the brain to control a robot. So they could walk about move their arms, visual feedback was provided. The operator reported the subjective experience of being the robot at this separate location.

The brain can be fooled into a "remote from the body" subjective experience.

We can examine the physiology of the brain all we want, but what is it that actually accounts for the subjective experience.

Brainwaves are interesting but not a real answer for this.

 

[Gambit]

We can examine the physiology of the brain all we want, but what is it that actually accounts for the subjective experience.

Brainwaves are interesting but not a real answer for this.

This is known as the "hard problem of consciousness."

 

[Bunyip]

This is known as the "hard problem of consciousness."

Sure, but Chalmers so called 'hard problem' doesn't really exist, nor does it infer any kind of non-physical, non-conceptual dimension to consciousness. The 'hard problem' is not relevant, science does not claim to have universal absolute knowledge in that regard.

 

[Nakosis]

This is known as the "hard problem of consciousness."

Hard because physical phenomena can't explain it.

Like the experiment were people wore glasses which inverted their vision. After 5 days or so what they saw through the glasses became un-inverted. They were seeing things right side up again. Nothing physically changed. So what they were seeing is not related to a physical process.

Unless the brain is capable of physically altering itself. This would have to occur unconsciously.

Perhaps part of the brain which experiences consciousness is separated from the billions of processes that the brain does. The part that is conscious is fed whatever information is necessary to provide the qualia. Like the color red. It is presented to the consciousness after subconsciously processed. The conscious part is not privy to the actual physical data.

If that is the case it would seem the conscious area of the brain is tricked into accepting a subjective experience. The unconscious part of the brain telling the conscious part it is seeing red.

The magic happens behind a curtain that conscious can't see through.

The self maybe the conscious brain walled off from the subconscious brain. Consciousness does exist separate from the rest of the brain. Doesn't necessarily make it non-physical. Maybe just a section of the brain with no direct access to the rest of the brain or the outside world.

 

[Cephus]

Sure, but Chalmers so called 'hard problem' doesn't really exist, nor does it infer any kind of non-physical, non-conceptual dimension to consciousness. The 'hard problem' is not relevant, science does not claim to have universal absolute knowledge in that regard.

Exactly. The whole idea behind Chalmers' claims boils down to "I don't want to believe X, therefore I won't". He has nothing to support his claims except his emotional demands that he's got to be true. Far too much modern philosophy is just mental masturbation.

 

[Graham Nicholson]

Human consciousness, although allied to the physical body, is essentially spiritual or non-physical in nature, a form of knowledge of being that is intuitively recognised as such, extending to a consciousness that a person has of himself or herself. But in my view it exists in degrees and is capable of expansion to higher levels. If a person’s consciousness is tied to only material considerations, then when that person is deprived of consciousness for any reason (such as by illness) then obviously that consciousness of the physical ceases. But being a spiritual faculty, if that consciousness is raised to a higher, spiritual degree, then it is an aspect of the human soul or spirit, the spiritual side of human nature, which many accept as ongoing, and enables him or her to perceive the essential unity of all that exists.

 

[Bunyip]

Exactly. The whole idea behind Chalmers' claims boils down to "I don't want to believe X, therefore I won't". He has nothing to support his claims except his emotional demands that he's got to be true. Far too much modern philosophy is just mental masturbation.

It is just nonsense. The 'hard problem' is vaporware.

 

[Bunyip]

Human consciousness, although allied to the physical body, is essentially spiritual or non-physical in nature, a form of knowledge of being that is intuitively recognised as such, extending to a consciousness that a person has of himself or herself. But in my view it exists in degrees and is capable of expansion to higher levels. If a person’s consciousness is tied to only material considerations, then when that person is deprived of consciousness for any reason (such as by illness) then obviously that consciousness of the physical ceases. But being a spiritual faculty, if that consciousness is raised to a higher, spiritual degree, then it is an aspect of the human soul or spirit, the spiritual side of human nature, which many accept as ongoing, and enables him or her to perceive the essential unity of all that exists.

What do you mean by 'spirit' and 'spiritual'? And how are you linking them to consciousness?

 

[Gambit]

Hard because physical phenomena can't explain it.

Yes.

Like the experiment were people wore glasses which inverted their vision. After 5 days or so what they saw through the glasses became un-inverted. They were seeing things right side up again. Nothing physically changed. So what they were seeing is not related to a physical process.

Unless the brain is capable of physically altering itself. This would have to occur unconsciously.

The brain does alter itself by "rewiring" (if that is the right word) itself. It's called "neuroplasticity."

If that is the case it would seem the conscious area of the brain is tricked into accepting a subjective experience.

This is unintelligible.

 

[Nakosis]

This is unintelligible.

Why?

It actually explains a lot.

It would also allow for free/freer choice. The idea of free will.

The consciousness, the self part of the brain doesn't make choices based on actual data. Consciousness makes choices based on impressions or qualia. Consciously we can choose to focus on different qualia, ignore any qualia, manipulate the qualia in various imagine scenarios. Which also adds imagine qualia into the process of choosing.

We are no longer a reactionary system like a computer that directly works on data. In an evolutionary sense we no longer work from stimulus/response. We can make choices even where there is a lack of information.

Makes the brain an amazing system. A dual system that allows for a greater range of interaction with the environment.

Subconsciously the brain can affect choice by providing impressions instead of actual data. The need for procreation. the subconscious provides impressions of beauty, pleasure, love to create desire in the consciousness. Consciously we can choose to ignore the impression, focus on any one impression more than others. This allows a greater range of response to stimulus.

This doesn't actually answer the question of whether conscious is physical or not, however it makes a non-physical aspect of the brain unnecessary.

 

[jtartar]

Is consciousness physical or nonphysical?

I don't believe there is any question, but that consciousness has to do with the mind.
Consider a person who gets injured so severely that he is considered to be in a vegetative state, they have no consciousness of who they are, even though their body may seem healthy.
Something even more telling. Our Great Creator has promise mankind that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous, Acts 24:15. When people are resurrected they will have self recognition, they will know exactly who they are just as you know who you are. This is done by God putting the complete Memory Bank in the brain. Their consciousness will be totally of the mind, because the body will not be made up of the same cells that composed the body at death. God will recreate the body similar to the one at death, but without the reason causing death, put within a recreated mind, The Memory Bank, and that person IS the person he knows himself to be.