Is "Cruelty" Ever Justified?

[David Davidovich]

And @nPeace, if I haven't sunk this battleship of yours also, I have another question for your thread. So, what about Jehovah's 10th plague of Egypt. And yeah, I read at your website that Jehovah did this based on a promise that he made (that perhaps he shouldn't have made) along with his contest against the Egypt god, Amon-Ra (that doesn't even exist).

Now we come to the climactic tenth plague on ancient Egypt, the death of the firstborn. The details of this plague are given at Exodus 11:1 to 12:36. What a demonstration of Jehovah’s power that occasion was, both to preserve and to destroy! Every firstborn son perished, from Pharaoh’s to that of the captive in the prison hole, as well as the firstborn of every beast. The gods of Egypt were judged helpless that night and so proved no gods. Especially so was Amon-Ra the supposed preserver of all the firstborn. Where was he that night? There could be no question now as to who was greater, Pharaoh’s Amon-Ra or Moses’ Jehovah.

>>>The Tenth Plague—Firstborn Slain
But I'm reading more and more from Christian fundamentalists that Jehovah has to go out of his way to prove things to humans. Additionally, I don't quite understand the point of the cruelty of the death of all the first-born animals in Egypt. Plus, perhaps it's something that I'm ignorant about, but I feel very unaware of the reason and the justification for the cruelty resulting from the death of Egypt's first born male animals.

 

[David Davidovich]

Speaking of atheism, as it originally is taken...
This... Romans 1:18-30

Actually, I think that Romans 1:20 kind of proves the opposite.

For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made,+ even his eternal power+ and Godship,+ so that they are inexcusable.

But if you aren't too scared of me, I would like to have a discussion with you about that.

 

[David Davidovich]

Here you go.

Might I suggest you improve the attitude you displayed here. I don't think that's an attitude of every atheist, but it certainly is, of some.
It would make receiving what you ask for easier.
Actually, persons having such an attitude is the reason God withholds from giving them anything... besides the reward they deserve.

Did you never read Matthew 7:6?

So, @nPeace, as far as Matthew 7:6 is concerned, I'm just curious as to what you think that blü 2 could possibly say to you after I read your
"Here you go" link more closely, and how you think that blü 2 could possibly trample your holy ideas and your spiritual pearls under his feet and then turn around and rip you open. Especially, since you're the one who made the challenge and started this thread.

 

[David Davidovich]

Here you go.

Might I suggest you improve the attitude you displayed here. I don't think that's an attitude of every atheist, but it certainly is, of some.
It would make receiving what you ask for easier.
Actually, persons having such an attitude is the reason God withholds from giving them anything... besides the reward they deserve.

Did you never read Matthew 7:6?

@nPeace, I know that you're long gone and that you've run away from this thread as usual, but I just wanted to ask this question anyway. Therefore, by virtue of posting a reply to blü 2 with your "Here you go" link, weren't you still essentially giving what is holy to spiritual dogs and throwing your pearls before spiritual swine? Because to have avoid doing that, shouldn't you have just ignored blü 2 and not even given him that link to read?

 

[YoursTrue]

You have a very strong opinion on that.
Perhaps you will share the reason for that opinion.


Again, I acknowledge your opinion.
Of course, the Bible makes clear that Adam and Eve were not to live forever... which God has the right to decide.
The Bible does not say anything about God fearing rivalry from man.


I have no problem with removing the wicked from the earth.
If every ruling nation could do that, wouldn't that be great!

Did you have a problem when United States Navy SEALs took out Osama Bin Laden?
Did you weep for the families destroyed in the bombing raids on his compounds?


Well certainly, God did not keep any Secret Classified Information from us.
That's what I like about this great king, judge, and warrior. There are no secrets. No cover ups, etc.

I read this, only this morning...
(Exodus 3:7-9) . . .“I have certainly seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry because of those who force them to work; I well know the pains they suffer. I will go down to rescue them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a land good and spacious, a land flowing with milk and honey, the territory of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Now look! The outcry of the people of Israel has reached me, and I have seen also the harsh way that the Egyptians are oppressing them.

One may ask. "Wait. Why is he going to take the land from the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites?"
Why?

Leviticus 18:3
You must not behave as they do in the land of Egypt, where you were dwelling, and you must not do what they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. And you must not walk in their statutes.

24 “‘Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for it is by all these things that the nations that I am driving out from before you have made themselves unclean. 25 Therefore, the land is unclean, and I will bring punishment on it for its error, and the land will vomit its inhabitants out. 26 But you yourselves must keep my statutes and my judicial decisions, and you must not do any of these detestable things, whether a native or a foreigner who is residing among you. 27 For all these detestable things were done by the men who lived in the land before you, and now the land is unclean. 28 Then the land will not have to vomit you out for defiling it in the same way that it will vomit out the nations that were before you. 29 If anyone does any of these detestable things, all those doing them must be cut off from among their people. 30 You must keep your obligation to me by not practicing any of the detestable customs that were carried on before you, so that you do not make yourselves unclean by them. I am Jehovah your God.’”

It's his land.
Seems reasonable for him to manage it according to his pleasure.
You obviously disagree. What reasons do you have for disagreeing?


A sacrifice is always good, so long as it is in keeping with good practice, and not violating any moral law.

If for example, you did something for me, and I am truly grateful, I would want to show my gratitude, and the depth of my gratitude will be evident in the value of my actions.
Suppose I am really rich, I could give you $500, but to me, that's like "chicken feed" (nothing - no sacrifice).
Giving you $5,000,000... now that's something - a sacrifice, showing how much I appreciate you.

Jephthah was willing to give the one thing that "meant the world to him" - his only daughter, to Jehovah - that is, to belong to God - serving him in his temple, for life... like Samuel did.

Unfortunately, some have mistakenly come to the conclusion that this was some sort of sacrifice, involving death, but this is either because they have not taken the time to carefully examine the scriptures, or they have been blinded by their own pride... or misled by others.

It's not too late for such ones though. There is still time for them to come to their senses and escape from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will.  (2 Timothy 2:26)


Why do you keep repeating this false claim?
Isn't speaking the truth a moral excellence... or do you think slandering others is morally right?


How did you arrive at that conclusion?


That's quite an accusation.
While I have not said anything about you, you are making personal attacks that are unwarranted.
I haven't even mentioned anything about your life, and what it would make you.

For example, I didn't say blu is immoral because ...
So can we keep this discussion off of me. Also, can you stop with the slander.

Okay, so, when you say, "these things", you need to be clear, because the slavery in Egypt was not approved by God, but not all slavery is bad.
I do not approve of certain forms of slavery, as I explained, quite clearly.
I think one would have to be drunk not to have grasped what I said... unless they were out of their mind.

I don't think you are either... I would hope.

As regards my approval of mass rapes, I have never had anyone tell such a bald face lie on me, but you do show some strong emotion for your opinions.
"murderous religious intolerance"? Whatever that must mean.
You probably are saying that God murders those he does not tolerate. How funny.
I don't hear people accusing the judge, who sentences someone to death, and the executioner who carries out the execution, of being murderers.
Must be something people have against God.

Anyway, you don't believe in any God, do you? So these are all stories right?
Why are you on about this, again?


You are not in any position to judge my morality.
Besides, where do you get those from, anyway?

Interesting point, because since there is, according to the Bible, one TRUE God -- He made himself clear to Abraham, Isaac, and later the people of Israel as you explain above, and stayed that way, including those who follow his Son. Thanks for your post.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Cruelty -
callous indifference to or pleasure in causing pain and suffering.

History has been marred with many cruel acts.
Scientists believe that there were battles fought by Neanderthals, which lasted 100,000 years, where heads were bashed in with clubs, and where javelins pierced body parts, and many arms were broken.

Spoiler: An Artist's Depiction of Neanderthal Battles

Young ones were also subjected to cruelty, some experts suggest.

Spoiler: Neanderthal Children's Death

Early human ate young Neanderthal
Sometime between 28,000 and 30,000 years ago, an anatomically modern human in what is now France may have eaten a Neanderthal child, according to a new study.
It is the first study to suggest Europe's first humans had a violent relationship with their muscular, big-headed hominid ancestors.

The secret Lives of Neanderthal Children
The Devil's Tower boy, found in 1926 in Gibraltar, died at only around five years old, possibly from skull fractures. But he had already suffered another serious incident earlier in life: as a toddler, his jaw was fractured. It's impossible to say how these injuries happened, but clearly, Neanderthal childhood could be dangerous.

Of course these hypotheses cannot be verified.

Some archaeologists also believe there is evidence of much cruel acts against children, as young as babies.

Spoiler: Cruel Child Sacrifices

Ancient Authorities Reported Child Sacrifice In Carthage
Writing in the 4th century B.C.E, the Greek historian Cleitarchus said of the Carthaginian practice, “There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos, its hands extended over a bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall upon the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier. Thus it is that the ‘grin’ is known as ‘sardonic laughter,’ since they die laughing.” (trans. Paul G. Mosca) “Kronos” was a regional name for Baal Hammon, the chief of Carthage’s gods.

Another Greek historian named Diodorus Siculus writing less than a hundred years after the fall Carthage affirms his countryman’s account. “There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire.”

Most scholars agree that the ritual performed at the tophet was child sacrifice
Archaeologists have applied the term "tophet" to large cemeteries of children found at Carthaginian sites that have traditionally been believed to house the victims of child sacrifice, as described by Hellenistic and biblical sources.

However, children are not always the victims of cruelty.
The daughter of Herodias danced for the occasion and pleased Herod so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. Then she, at her mother’s prompting, said: “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” Grieved though he was, the king, out of regard for his oaths and for those dining with him, commanded it to be given. So he sent and had John beheaded in the prison. His head was brought on a platter and given to the girl, and she brought it to her mother. Matthew 14:6-11
Salome, (flourished 1st century ce), according to the Jewish historian Josephus, the daughter of Herodias and stepdaughter of Herod Antipas, tetrarch (ruler appointed by Rome) of Galilee, a region in Palestine. In Biblical literature she is remembered as the immediate agent in the execution of John the Baptist.

List of youngest killers
Ziapasa Daughter, 3-Year-Old Murderess – West Virginia, 1906
The youngest murderess in the history of this state is the 3-year-old daughter of Michael Ziapasa, of Benwood, who so badly wounded a 2-months-old baby of a neighbor, Edward Schepech, that it died.
In the absence of the baby’s mother, the Ziapasa child attacked it with a butcher knife, cutting off its nose, stabbing it in the breast in many places and almost severing its arm.

Of particular interest, are the youngest of the murderesses.

Spoiler: List of Murderesses Younger than 10 Years Old

Age 3 – 1906 – Ziapasa daughter
Age 4 – 1885 – Lizzie Lewis
Age 4 – 1897 – Retta McCabe
Age 6 – 1892 – Bottoms Girl
Age 6 – 1899 – Lizzie Cook
Age 7 – 1887 – Virginia (or, Georgiana) Hudson
Age 7 – 1925 – Alsa Thompson
Age 8 – 1867 – Martin Girl
Age 8 – 2001 – Jummai Hassan
Age 8 – 1900 – Valentine Dilly
Age 9 – 1885 – Mary Cooper
Age 9 – 1884 – Annie Bebles
Age 9 – 1902 – Anna Peters
Age 9 – 1896 – Hattie Record
Age 9 – 2005 – “East New York girl”
Age 10 – 1834 – Honorine Pellois
Age 10 – 1873 – Sarah Reeves
Age 10 – 1897 – Geneva Arnold
Age 10 – 1886 – Jane Walker
Age 10 – 2010 – “Sandy Springs girl”
Age 10 – 2012 – Kelli Murphy

Youthful Borgias: Girls Who Murder – The Forgotten “Lizzie Bordens”

I strangled the baby, because I felt they were working me too hard. Laughs I have to laugh, when the impulse comes over me.


Among the public overall, 64% say the death penalty is morally justified in cases of murder, while 33% say it is not justified. An overwhelming share of death penalty supporters (90%) say it is morally justified under such circumstances, compared with 25% of death penalty opponents.”​

For discussion...
Are acts against cruelty, in itself, an act of cruelty?

I voted "don't know" because I don't feel comfortable with these kinds of "absolute" statements concerning rather vague, and even subjective, value judgements.


Let's just say that a priori my answer is "no", cruelty is never justified.
But I'll also put an asterisk there to note that that a priori answer is tentative and I can't rule out being presented with a situation where it is nonetheless justified imo


For example, take the A bombs on Japan near the end of WW2.
People tend to be very divided on those being justified or not. It doesn't even matter on which side I'm on there.
Such dilemma's clearly show that it certainly can get relative, and that "justifiable cruelty" might just be a thing.