Is Evolution a religion?

[Jayhawker Soule]

I've heard it said that it requires more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creation, and that (since faith is an essential characteristic of religion), this means belief in evolution is a religion. What do you make of this notion?

Why should we even consider giving credence to some curious intellectual anomaly suffered by only a minority of the world's Christians. The theist who "requires more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creation" should be allowed to explain that defect however he or she wishes. Those who embrace evolution do so, not out of faith, but because of its elegance supported by a growing abundance of evidence.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Evolution is not a religion, it is science. Creationists like to try and label it as a religion to bring it down to their level, but such tactics are quickly caught up in the undercurrent of the "Great Flood" of logic.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

I've heard it said that it requires more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creation, and that (since faith is an essential characteristic of religion), this means belief in evolution is a religion. What do you make of this notion?

I concur with it.

To be a creationist, you just have to believe the creation story in Genesis. Simple.

To be an evolutionist, you have to believe that life started as random animo acids that somehow became simple organisms, that somehow became complex organisms, that somehow became the wide range of animals, that one of those animals was some kind of monkey, and that somehow, maybe magically, who knows, some of those monkeys started walking up right and developed into the different races speaking different languages that we witness today. Since science hasn't been able to pin down a exact causality for these transformations, that sure is a lot to take on faith.

The single biggest piece that the church of the evolutionists takes on faith is origin. What was there before the Big Bang, what exactly went bang, and what caused it to go bang? I don't have the answers. It's not that I don't have faith. It's that evolution can't answer the questions I have.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To be an evolutionist, you have to believe that life started as random animo acids that somehow became simple organisms, that somehow became complex organisms, that somehow became the wide range of animals, that one of those animals was some kind of monkey, and that somehow, maybe magically, who knows, some of those monkeys started walking up right and developed into the different races speaking different languages that we witness today. Since science hasn't been able to pin down a exact causality for these transformations, that sure is a lot to take on faith.

Exact causality? As in "God Did It"? Your joking, of course. :biglaugh:

By the way, for those of you who willl accept less than exact causality: think "Panama"!

 

[Ceridwen018]

CaptainXeroid,

Your arguments are a bit misleading. First of all, you are giving Bible stories the same clout as tested scientific evidence. Once you've done that, you continue by appealing to the idea of value by numbers, like so:

"If you believe in creationism, all you have to do is believe in the story of Genesis! That's only one thing! On the other hand, if you believe in evolution you have to believe in several things which I don't personally understand, so I will assume that no one else understands them either!"

It would make as much sense for me to say, "Hey CX, if you give me your single $20 bill, I will give you three $1 bills in return! That's a profit of 2 bills! Wow!" Do you understand this concept?

To explain it more clearly, science is metaphorically equivalent to one $20 bill, and silly Bible stories are equivalent to three $1 bills. What may seem like a profit to a simple mind is actually the opposite.

Since science hasn't been able to pin down a exact causality for these transformations, that sure is a lot to take on faith.

You should be careful not to base your beliefs on your own ignorance. Science actually has been able to "pin down" your many "somethings". Welcome to the 21st century.

This brings me to address the main point of your post--that it takes more faith to accept evolution than it does to believe in creationism. I would describe this idea as the cardboard cutout of ideas--easily knocked over. Evolution has a wealth of evidence supporting it, (just because you don't understand it/know about it doesn't mean it isn't there), and creationism has....positively no evidence supporting it.

Done and done.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You should be careful not to base your beliefs on your own ignorance.

Clearly frubal-worthy!

 

[Jaymes]

"To be a creationist, you just have to believe the creation story in Genesis. Simple."

I'd like to point out that the JudeoChristian story of creation isn't the only one. You can be a creationist, agree with evolution, and not believe in the creation story in Genesis! Amazing.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I'd like to point out that the JudeoChristian story of creation isn't the only one. You can be a creationist, agree with evolution, and not believe in the creation story in Genesis! Amazing.

Frubals for you! I really agree that 'amazing' is the only way to sum up the number of options there are out there. Mmm.... Wondrous variety... *Homer-like drooling*

 

[Scuba Pete]

It is amazing that those who base their belief system on physical evidence alone, seem to loose sight that spiritual evidence is JUST as valid. Just because you can't see it or understand it does not invalidate it. So when you blithely say there is "no evidence", you are only showing us that you are spiritually blind to the obvious evidence in front of you. It is not us, but YOU who are basing your beliefs on ignorance. For a long time people did not believe in germs for the same reason.

CX has asked an incredibly insightful question: "Where do we come from?" Science has thus far proved inadequate to the task of answering it. Y'all have thus far displayed an amazing amount of faith that it will, when it has not even come close. Scientific evidence might be the $20 bill, but spiritual evidence is priceless.

 

[Sunstone]

"To be a creationist, you just have to believe the creation story in Genesis. Simple."

I'd like to point out that the JudeoChristian story of creation isn't the only one. You can be a creationist, agree with evolution, and not believe in the creation story in Genesis! Amazing.

Good point! But do you think evolution is a religion?

 

[CaptainXeroid]

... First of all, you are giving Bible stories the same clout as tested scientific evidence...

No I did not!

...You should be careful not to base your beliefs on your own ignorance...

Maybe I should base something on your arrogance and ignorance.:tsk:

...just because you don't understand it/know about it doesn't mean it isn't there...

I understand it and know what it means more than you could ever hope to know. Grow up and get over yourself.

As I read your response, I kept wondering if you are as totally clueless as you demonstated in your post.:biglaugh: The quote Sunstone offered was '...it requires more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creation.' I offered reasons why I believe it does. I'm not going to waste anymore time reiterating them to someone who is too narrow-minded to consider them. Done and done.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

"To be a creationist, you just have to believe the creation story in Genesis. Simple."
I'd like to point out that the JudeoChristian story of creation isn't the only one. You can be a creationist, agree with evolution, and not believe in the creation story in Genesis! Amazing.

Jensa, I was trying to point out the number of things a Creationist needs to accept on faith, 1, versus what an evolutionist would have to accept. Thank you NetDoc for understanding the point.

I don't remember the threads, but other have posted that Creation and Evolution compliment each other because each has elements the other can explain. The reason I normally stay out of these discussions is the extremists on either side who seek to discredit and ridicule one theory or the other. That kind of bigotry removes most of the intellectual usefulness out of a discussion.

 

[Jaymes]

Good point! But do you think evolution is a religion?

Not at all. If evolution is a religion, then gravity should be as well... they're both 'only' theories, after all.

 

[Ceridwen018]

It is not us, but YOU who are basing your beliefs on ignorance. For a long time people did not believe in germs for the same reason.

This is entirely different. Before germs were formally discovered, there wasn't a group of people going around and saying, "Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there! We KNOW there are germs!" The definition of "supernatural" means that it cannot be percieved, and thus to say I am "spiritually blind" would be equivalent to saying I am "fugploofally blind".

Science has thus far proved inadequate to the task of answering it. Y'all have thus far displayed an amazing amount of faith that it will,

I grow tired of the "filling-in-gaps God".

Maybe I should base something on your arrogance and ignorance.

I wouldn't suggest that either. However, I would ask that you show me the same courtesy I paid to you and explain my ignorance to me.

The quote Sunstone offered was '...it requires more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creation.' I offered reasons why I believe it does.

Your reasons were misguided, and I explained why. They are based on the idea that "science can't explain it" which is simply not true, because it can. I suggest you find yourself a recent biology textbook and start reading. I could give you a few worthy titles if you wish.

Jensa, I was trying to point out the number of things a Creationist needs to accept on faith, 1, versus what an evolutionist would have to accept.

I think you're cutting evolution a raw deal. Here are all of the different things that a person must accept in order to believe in creationism:

1. That a Supreme Being exists.
2. That this Supreme Being created the universe and everything within it.
3. That the Bible was inspired by this Supreme Being.
4. That the creation story which appears in the Bible actually happened.

Now, lets see what people who subscribe to evolution must accept based on faith:

1. That there aren't little gnomes creating a huge conspiracy on Earth to make it appear as though evolution occurs, and thus invalidating all evidence for said theory.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I didn't say "supernatural", I said "spiritual". If you can't see spiritual truths or evidences then you are spiritually blind.

I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. NIV

 

[Scuba Pete]

Now, lets see what people who subscribe to evolution must accept based on faith:

Now Dear Ceridwen, I don't think you are being entirely honest here.

1) Life just HAPPENED

2) DNA just HAPPENED

3) Something came from NOTHING

4) The "Big Bang" came from nowhere

We could go on, but there are a LOT of assumptions to swallow a non-theistic evolution.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now Dear Ceridwen, I don't think you are being entirely honest here.

3) Something came from NOTHING
4) The "Big Bang" came from nowhere

Clearly someone is not being entirely honest. Where, precisely, does Cosmology in general or String Theory in particular make such assertions?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Well Deut, then it's time for you to come clean then. Tell us just WHERE does cosmology and String Theory tell us we came from? You don't have to be dishonest anymore.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think it's important to delineate between two very different things: the scientific theory/fact of evolution, and the belief that this process occurred without divine influence. Science cannot explicitly exclude deities/supernatural forces in its explanations of observable phenomena, but, because it is predicated on naturalism, it cannot explicitly include deities/supernatural forces in its explanations, either. For science, god/Zeus/Brahman/Rah's involvement in humankind's origins is a nonissue. There is no method to test such claims scientifically. Evolution as a scientific theory and fact is not 'religion' by any means, and it is predicated on a methodology which is the antithesis of religious faith--namely, methodological naturalism.

The belief that god/Zeus/Brahman/Rah were explicitly not involved in humankind's origins, however, is a philosophical one. It is based on the philosophical argument that belief in scientifically unevidenced claims is unwarranted. Like any belief (philosophical, religious, or scientific) some of its adherents can be fanatical; however, I don't think it requires "faith"--as in, the religious "faith" which does not require evidence to sustain itself--to lack belief in YHWH, Zeus, Brahman, Rah, or the tooth fairy, or their participation in humankind's origins.

I think everyone who posts on this thread should make clear what they are talking about: the scientific theory of evolution, or the belief in nontheistic evolution.

To be an evolutionist, you have to believe that life started as random animo acids that somehow became simple organisms, that somehow became complex organisms, that somehow became the wide range of animals, that one of those animals was some kind of monkey, and that somehow, maybe magically, who knows, some of those monkeys started walking up right and developed into the different races speaking different languages that we witness today. Since science hasn't been able to pin down a exact causality for these transformations, that sure is a lot to take on faith.

It would take a lot of faith, if that's what evolutionists actually believed.

Do you deny that those things happened, or do you deny the explanations which science gives for them? Or do you simply deny that "God did not have a hand in it"?

It doesn't take much faith to believe that humans evolved from a primate ancestor.....the fossil record is there for all to see. Whether god(s) or supernatural forces caused humans to evolve from primates is another matter entirely.

It is amazing that those who base their belief system on physical evidence alone, seem to loose sight that spiritual evidence is JUST as valid.

What is spiritual evidence?

Just because you can't see it or understand it does not invalidate it.

I agree, but on the other hand, just because you are strongly convinced that something you can't see or understand is there, doesn't mean it's there.

So when you blithely say there is "no evidence", you are only showing us that you are spiritually blind to the obvious evidence in front of you. It is not us, but YOU who are basing your beliefs on ignorance. For a long time people did not believe in germs for the same reason.

After you have defined 'spiritual evidence' for us, please explain what this 'spiritual evidence' consisted of, and why it should have lead us to conclude the existence of bacteria and viruses long ago.

CX has asked an incredibly insightful question: "Where do we come from?" Science has thus far proved inadequate to the task of answering it.

Science says that humans descended from a primate ancestor that competed with other human-like species, all of whom shared a common ancestor with all other animals (and, ultimately, plants). Science says that the mass extinction of the dinosaurs allowed mammals to take over, that modern humans appeared about 500,000 years ago (correct me if I'm wrong on that number). Science has shown that the calcium atoms and all the other elements in our bodies were created by the deaths of stars, whose aftermath consisted of clouds of gas which condensed to form our solar system. Science has also shown that the universe itself is about 14 billion years old, and originated from a very dense, hot universe which expanded and cooled until the present.

Inadequate to the task? No. A long way to go, yet? You bet. That's what continues to make it exciting.

Y'all have thus far displayed an amazing amount of faith that it will, when it has not even come close.

Prayer, on the other hand, and 'spiritual evidence', surely would have shown us that the iron atoms in my blood originated from the death of a star like our Sun, or that the universe is about 14 billion years old, or that modern humans evolved around 500,000 years ago, right? Surely some prophet would have foretold by now, had we not been so engrossed in our foolish scientific observation and experiment, that the Milky Way galaxy came to its present form after it consumed a smaller galaxy in the past, right?

Scientific evidence might be the $20 bill, but spiritual evidence is priceless.

I'm sure the 'spiritual evidence' which proves to you that the deity described in the Bible somehow guided evolution is as priceless to you as the 'spiritual evidence' which proves to pagans that Prometheus brought humans fire is to them, which, in turn, is as priceless to some Christians as the 'spiritual evidence' which proves that one male and one female tricerotops were passengers on Noah's Ark.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Tell us just WHERE does cosmology and String Theory tell us we came from? You don't have to be dishonest anymore.

Cosmology and string theory do not tell us where humans came from. Archeology and evolutionary biology tell us that.

Don't you agree that modern humans evolved from a primate ancestor, NetDoc? I thought you believed in evolution.