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Is Evolution a religion?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
NetDoc said:
I am not sure how you think Deut, so I can't answer that for you. :D

There are many people who think that our landing on the moon was a mere delusion. They find myriads of problems with the "evidence" much like you do with Christianity. Their assertion that the facts and conclusions of this event are delusion do little to change the reality. However, I accept the words of the astronauts just as I accept the words of the apostles. All the facts needed for belief are in the Scriptures (Old or New). If you won't believe them you won't believe me much.
Very good point - one I try to get across, but not half as eloquently as you, NetDoc.:)
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
There are many people who think that our landing on the moon was a mere delusion. They find myriads of problems with the "evidence" much like you do with Christianity. Their assertion that the facts and conclusions of this event are delusion do little to change the reality. However, I accept the words of the astronauts just as I accept the words of the apostles. All the facts needed for belief are in the Scriptures (Old or New). If you won't believe them you won't believe me much.
Really? You accept the word of the astronauts?

You are not basing your belief in the moon landing on the video, nor the official proclimation of NASA and the US, nor on a (basic) understanding of the physics, but on the word of a couple guys you haven't met?

So then you also believe Muhammed's word, and Buddas. You also believe the UFO abductees and Korresh who spoke with God, and Bigfoot?

You don't ?!?!?!

Why are you taking some peoples word and not others?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
Really? You accept the word of the astronauts?

You are not basing your belief in the moon landing on the video, nor the official proclimation of NASA and the US, nor on a (basic) understanding of the physics, but on the word of a couple guys you haven't met?

So then you also believe Muhammed's word, and Buddas. You also believe the UFO abductees and Korresh who spoke with God, and Bigfoot?

You don't ?!?!?!

Why are you taking some peoples word and not others?
Come, come, you know as well as the rest of us, that if one sector of mankind wanted to make us believe that the Moon lading was true, even though it was false, they would do so!:rolleyes:
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Jerry,

Have you ever watched "Galaxy Quest"? In it a group of aliens have been following a sicence fiction show much like "Star trek", and believe that all of these futuristic heros and devices actually work. Having faith in what they saw, they come to earth for help from an obviously advanced society. They were quite taken aback to find that the "special effects" of the Sitcom were indeed lies. PS...I love this movie.

So what makes YOU believe that the US government has not pulled the wool over your eyes about the moon landing? Nothing but faith. There is no difference between YOUR belief in landing on the moon and MY belief that Jesus walked on the water or more importantly, that he was raised from the dead. Nada, squat, zilch.

But there is a certain amount of arrogant pride and arrogance that makes us all put our beliefs above others. We see them as more noble, more intellectual, more this or more that. We do the same for our evidences as well. But in the end, it all boils down to FAITH. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. Welcome to the human condition. :D
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
JerryL said:
Why are you taking some peoples word and not others?
Almost missed this.

II Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them. NIV

II Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Have you ever watched "Galaxy Quest"? [...] So what makes YOU believe that the US government has not pulled the wool over your eyes about the moon landing? Nothing but faith.
Have you ever watched the Matrix? What makes you think you are really in your chair typing?

I believe the moon landings because people watched the launch. Because countries that would like us not to have gone there, and have the technology to watch us, did not protest it. I believe it because of the *vast* numbers of available, accessable witnisses and evidences for what becomes a rather easy-to-believe claim (once you've established that you can put things in space, and I know you can do that because I've seen them with my own eyes).

Nothing but faith. There is no difference between YOUR belief in landing on the moon and MY belief that Jesus walked on the water or more importantly, that he was raised from the dead. Nada, squat, zilch.
I accidently just addressed this above. The claim is extraordinary (as there's no prescedent that we can all verify empirically), there are only four accounts handed down, of dubious origin (even most Christians acknowledge that three of the gospels were written by non-witnesses). There's no video, no physical evidence, no accessable eye-witness, no nothing. It's a claim in a book.

But there is a certain amount of arrogant pride and arrogance that makes us all put our beliefs above others. We see them as more noble, more intellectual, more this or more that. We do the same for our evidences as well. But in the end, it all boils down to FAITH. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. Welcome to the human condition.
Depends on which argument you want to have? In the end, my belief that I exist, and that there is reality, and that reality is similar to how my generally accurate senses percieve it is a presupposition I've made partially because I'm wired that way (assuming it's true anyway) and out of the impracticality of the alternative.

If you want to argue that, we'll never get past that stage ("does reality exist") in either argument. If you want to argue at the more practical level, my belief in a moon-landing is based on a proponderance of material evidence... and is a standard I'm consistant on.

You, however, are hypocritical; believing one book's claims while rejecting those of another book. You believe in Jesus, but no Bigfoot.

Almost missed this.
You are taking their word because they claim they are right? Why are you not taking the word of others who claim they are right?
 
NetDoc said:
This seems to be inordinately hard for a few of you to grasp.
Does this comment mean NetDoc will actually answer the question (finally)? The question posed is, 'What is 'spiritual evidence'?' Let's see if we can find a definition somewhere in his post..... )(

I Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
God has revealed "it" to "us" by his "Spirit". Okay.....what is 'spiritual evidence'?
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
So what is 'spiritual evidence'?

11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
That's nice, but what is 'spiritual evidence'?

12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
Okay, that's nice, but what is 'spiritual evidence'?

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
Um, hello? I asked about 'spiritual evidence'....oooh, wait, the next part is in bold text, it must be the part that defines 'spiritual evidence......

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Hmm....well maybe it's coming.....

15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
I hear ya, brother. ;) What is 'spiritual evidence'?
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV
Looks like you must have accidentally cut off the part that defines 'spiritual evidence' NetDoc, because the passage you quoted doesn't even mention the phrase 'spiritual evidence' (hang on, maybe I missed it......nope, not there). Tell you what: this may make things easier--

'Spiritual evidence' is ______________ (fill in the blank)

NetDoc said:
I hope this helps.
Me too. :) Feel free to answer the question whenever you're ready.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Mocking me or the scriptures does little but show people how unreasonable you are. It also ends this conversation for me. Thanks for the harrassment. Good day.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
NetDoc said:
Mocking me or the scriptures does little but show people how unreasonable you are.
I did not find him at all unreasonable. He asked a question and you responded with scripture. Either the answer was to be found in that scripture or you were simply being rude and nonresponsive.
NetDoc said:
It also ends this conversation for me.
That is always a convenient option. The more respectful would be to answer the question posed or explain why you choose not to do so.
NetDoc said:
Thanks for the harrassment.
This is a debate forum. Pointing out your failure to take responsibility for your statements may well be embarrassing, but it's hardly harrassment. I think you owe our friend an apology.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I did not find him at all unreasonable.
Only because he uses your method of mock, insult and intimidate. The answer is in verse 14. I don't expect you to accept it OR understand it.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Is it fair to call it evidence when only a select group can discern it?
 
NetDoc said:
The answer is in verse 14.
I read verse 14, and nowhere did I find any mention of 'spiritual evidence'.

It's becoming clear to me that 'spiritual evidence' boils down to good ol' fashioned divine revelation, and if a person believes that their beliefs were handed down to them from on High, there is no convincing him/her otherwise, whether those beliefs include gods, spirits, demons, talking snakes, men walking on water, Mohammed splitting the Moon, evil genies, geocentric universes, etc. That's what seperates science--as in, the science behind explanations like evolution--and religion/dogmatism: if you follow scientific methodology, you don't pretend that you are a source of absolute truth, projecting confidence in yourself as confidence in imaginary, all-knowing being(s); beings which, wouldn't you know it, have chosen YOU (and all who agree with you) as their spokesperson.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
you don't pretend that you are a source of absolute truth, projecting confidence in yourself as confidence in imaginary
You are speaking of the individual believer here right?

~Victor
 
Victor said:
You are speaking of the individual believer here right?
I was speaking of people in general--specifically, what they ought not to do if they follow methodological naturalism, and how science and its explanations (like evolution) are different from religious dogmatism.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Mr_Spinkles said:
I was speaking of people in general--specifically, what they ought not to do if they follow methodological naturalism, and how science and its explanations (like evolution) are different from religious dogmatism.
Ah the pesky methodological naturalism view. The idea of swearing to stay neutral, but know one really can. What to do.

~Victor
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Victor said:
Ah the pesky methodological naturalism view. The idea of swearing to stay neutral, but know one really can. What to do.
What does methodological naturalism have to do with "swearing to stay neutral"?
 
I second Deut's question, Victor. Methodological naturalism certainly does not require that one "stay neutral," if the evidence favors one thing over another.
 
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