Is free will really an illusion?

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm not sure it's answerable with a right or wrong answer...is why I answered as I did.

So part of free will involves being evasive then.

 

[Deidre]

So part of free will involves being evasive then.

I don't debate people who put words in my mouth...virtually or otherwise.

 

[EtuMalku]

But the word 'Free Will' isn't useless. Just useless to you because it doesn't conform to what you think it should mean.

Explain to me your definition of Free Will then . . .

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I don't debate people who put words in my mouth...virtually or otherwise.

Evasive and combative. I'm intrigued.

 

[EtuMalku]

Isn't the freedom to choose one element of free will?
I think a LARGE and IMPORTANT element of free will.
"Free Will" means to me the ability (freedom) to make choices for myself.

Wouldn't that simply be 'the ability to make choices for yourself" ? Why would that indicate Free Will?

 

[atanu]

I have a question regarding this. Go ahead and tell me how I am wrong on it if I really am wrong. I personally don't think free will is an illusion because if you were to look at an unconscious organism such as a plant, then its acts are fixed. They are fixed towards survival. For example, the plant takes in sunlight, absorbs water, and all other processes of the plant are never random and are never against its own survival. They are fixed towards the survival of the plant.

So the same thing should hold true for the brain. If our acts and choices are predetermined, then they too should be fixed towards our survival and towards the survival (helping) of others as well. But I could choose to mindlessly perform a bunch of random acts right now such as frailing my arms up in the air. As a matter of fact, I could choose right now to perform acts that go against my own survival and the survival of others.

For a brain to perform such acts would imply that the brain is malfunctioning just as how I could also say that the plant performing random acts and acts against its own survival is malfunctioning as well. But the brain is not malfunctioning. It might of very well been my awareness right now of such acts that lead my brain into performing them. But still, the question remains. Why would the brain even perform such acts in the first place?

It shouldn't. So the very fact that I did perform them implies that free will exists and is not an illusion.

Free will for whom? Where does the I reside that has the free will?

 

[Deidre]

Evasive and combative. I'm intrigued.

lol

 

[Deidre]

Oops, in looking at the title of this thread...I'd have to say that perhaps free will is really an illusion. I'm on the fence about it honestly, because I've always thought that our choices (free will) are what largely determined the outcomes in our lives, but upon reading more into determinism as of late, it seems that there is merit in believing that our choices are all 'set up' by external 'forces.' (for want of a better word)

 

[EtuMalku]

Oops, in looking at the title of this thread...I'd have to say that perhaps free will is really an illusion. I'm on the fence about it honestly, because I've always thought that our choices (free will) are what largely determined the outcomes in our lives, but upon reading more into determinism as of late, it seems that there is merit in believing that our choices are all 'set up' by external 'forces.' (for want of a better word)

Determinism implies a higher authority and an unchangeable outcome . . . I don't believe that for one moment.
Free Will is the philosophy that upholds liberty. This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty, political freedom, and voluntary association. It is the antonym to authoritarianism and is Free From the Imposed Will of Another.

 

[Deidre]

Determinism implies a higher authority and an unchangeable outcome . . . I don't believe that for one moment.
Free Will is the philosophy that upholds liberty. This includes emphasis on the primacy of individual liberty, political freedom, and voluntary association. It is the antonym to authoritarianism and is Free From the Imposed Will of Another.

But part of the premise of determinism, is that it suggests we still are reliant on more than our free will to direct us. The choices you make today, aren't coming out of the blue...you are probably motivated to make different decisions by external factors, to varying degrees. It is just another way to see it.

 

[EtuMalku]

But part of the premise of determinism, is that it suggests we still are reliant on more than our free will to direct us. The choices you make today, aren't coming out of the blue...you are probably motivated to make different decisions by external factors, to varying degrees. It is just another way to see it.

And that is exactly why Determinism is a bad thing IMO . . . you are not Free from the imposed Will of another (religious indoctrination)

 

[Deidre]

And that is exactly why Determinism is a bad thing IMO . . . you are not Free from the imposed Will of another (religious indoctrination)

It's interesting you bring that up, because I used to believe (when I was an atheist) that determinism was mainly a religious idea. But, even as an atheist...you can view life as your choices even, are predetermined because of the circumstances in your life. We tend to make choices based on how we view the world, and how we view the world, often comes from our childhoods and our experiences. Even if facts that counter those ideas are presented to us, we tend to make choices that are comfortable to us. And comforting. Just part of being human, leaving religion, etc out of it.

 

[EtuMalku]

It's interesting you bring that up, because I used to believe (when I was an atheist) that determinism was mainly a religious idea. But, even as an atheist...you can view life as your choices even, are predetermined because of the circumstances in your life. We tend to make choices based on how we view the world, and how we view the world, often comes from our childhoods and our experiences. Even if facts that counter those ideas are presented to us, we tend to make choices that are comfortable to us. And comforting. Just part of being human, leaving religion, etc out of it.

Ah yes . . . but this goes back to my personal definition of Free Will . . . to be free from the indoctrination and Will of another. Easier said than done, I know . . .

 

[Deidre]

Ah yes . . . but this goes back to my personal definition of Free Will . . . to be free from the indoctrination and Will of another. Easier said than done, I know . . .

Yes it is hard, and how would we ever really know for sure, if our decisions are ever really independently...our own? No matter how much we try to remove ourselves from certain experiences, distance ourselves from certain memories...do those experiences still shape our choices, and do we ever have 100% ''free will?''

 

[EtuMalku]

Yes it is hard, and how would we ever really know for sure, if our decisions are ever really independently...our own? No matter how much we try to remove ourselves from certain experiences, distance ourselves from certain memories...do those experiences still shape our choices, and do we ever have 100% ''free will?''

Without proselytizing, that is where the western left hand path religions come in and their emphasis on Individuation and cultivation of autotheism

 

[Sleeppy]

Ah yes . . . but this goes back to my personal definition of Free Will . . . to be free from the indoctrination and Will of another. Easier said than done, I know . . .

Without proselytizing, that is where the western left hand path religions come in and their emphasis on Individuation and cultivation of autotheism

Choice/will is never free. Everything relies on that "first" singularity, before the Big Bang. Choices/wills don't spontaneously arise; they are determined according to the predetermination of that singularity.

 

[Mycroft]

Explain to me your definition of Free Will then . . .

My definition would be 'Action without cause'.

 

[EtuMalku]

Choice/will is never free. Everything relies on that "first" singularity, before the Big Bang. Choices/wills don't spontaneously arise; they are determined according to the predetermination of that singularity.

I don't get that . . . the objective universe IMO is an unconscious, mechanism not something founded on determinants.

 

[EtuMalku]

My definition would be 'Action without cause'.

Is there an example of this?

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't get that . . . the objective universe IMO is an unconscious, mechanism not something founded on determinants.

The question should never be whether there are determinants.. We know the universe created the laws of physics (according to what the original singularity DEMANDED), and sustains them reliably. The question is whether or not true randomness exists, and whether or not any given will is random, i.e. truly free.