Is free will really an illusion?

[Milton Platt]

I have a question regarding this. Go ahead and tell me how I am wrong on it if I really am wrong. I personally don't think free will is an illusion because if you were to look at an unconscious organism such as a plant, then its acts are fixed. They are fixed towards survival. For example, the plant takes in sunlight, absorbs water, and all other processes of the plant are never random and are never against its own survival. They are fixed towards the survival of the plant.

So the same thing should hold true for the brain. If our acts and choices are predetermined, then they too should be fixed towards our survival and towards the survival (helping) of others as well. But I could choose to mindlessly perform a bunch of random acts right now such as frailing my arms up in the air. As a matter of fact, I could choose right now to perform acts that go against my own survival and the survival of others.

For a brain to perform such acts would imply that the brain is malfunctioning just as how I could also say that the plant performing random acts and acts against its own survival is malfunctioning as well. But the brain is not malfunctioning. It might of very well been my awareness right now of such acts that lead my brain into performing them. But still, the question remains. Why would the brain even perform such acts in the first place?

It shouldn't. So the very fact that I did perform them implies that free will exists and is not an illusion.

Since all of our actions are informed by our historical experiences and environment, free will is largely an illusion. We act upon cues, both on a conscious level and on a subliminal level. Our past always informs out actions to some degree.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Oops, in looking at the title of this thread...I'd have to say that perhaps free will is really an illusion. I'm on the fence about it honestly, because I've always thought that our choices (free will) are what largely determined the outcomes in our lives, but upon reading more into determinism as of late, it seems that there is merit in believing that our choices are all 'set up' by external 'forces.' (for want of a better word)

Perhaps you aren't looking into it deep enough. So far, the best I can tel in this discussionl, mind function is being limited to a thought process. There may be more to it than that. For example, there is an oriental line of explanation for the mind that divides it into 3 parts. The spirit (shen) the will (hsin, and the thought (i). The spirit motivates the will. The will motivates the thought. So my original question to you was what part of you motivates the thought? May I assume you believe in will but are just unsure whether it is free or not.

 

[Willamena]

I have a question regarding this. Go ahead and tell me how I am wrong on it if I really am wrong. I personally don't think free will is an illusion because if you were to look at an unconscious organism such as a plant, then its acts are fixed. They are fixed towards survival. For example, the plant takes in sunlight, absorbs water, and all other processes of the plant are never random and are never against its own survival. They are fixed towards the survival of the plant.

So the same thing should hold true for the brain. If our acts and choices are predetermined, then they too should be fixed towards our survival and towards the survival (helping) of others as well. But I could choose to mindlessly perform a bunch of random acts right now such as frailing my arms up in the air. As a matter of fact, I could choose right now to perform acts that go against my own survival and the survival of others.

For a brain to perform such acts would imply that the brain is malfunctioning just as how I could also say that the plant performing random acts and acts against its own survival is malfunctioning as well. But the brain is not malfunctioning. It might of very well been my awareness right now of such acts that lead my brain into performing them. But still, the question remains. Why would the brain even perform such acts in the first place?

It shouldn't. So the very fact that I did perform them implies that free will exists and is not an illusion.

The plant's thoughts, if it thinks, do not differ from the world. The same scenario as the plant would hold true for us, if we didn't also live in a would made up of things that we think about, things that are in addition to the world. Things like good and bad, right and wrong, fear and courage, man and woman, left and right, friend and terrorist. It's the latter things, the things we devised on our own, the things that are additional and optional to the world, that give us the capacity for choice. Otherwise, our lives would play out doing just what we would, just like the plant.

 

[Willamena]

But that's a false appropriation of the concept.

It's not, it's just the concept in its guise as "liberty."

 

[Nous]

The wonderful irony on threads such as this is that those here who claim to inherently lack the freedom to choose between X (your favorite meal from a Chinese restaurant) and Y (a steaming plate of your own defecation) for dinner want us to believe that they have chosen to make a true statement about free will rather than a false statement.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The wonderful irony on threads such as this is that those here who claim to inherently lack the freedom to choose between X (your favorite meal from a Chinese restaurant) and Y (a steaming plate of your own defecation) for dinner want us to believe that they have chosen to make a true statement about free will rather than a false statement.

I'm somewhat sure that most people have no clear understanding of what motivates them and therefore cannot coherently discuss free will.

 

[Skwim]

The wonderful irony on threads such as this is that those here who claim to inherently lack the freedom to choose between X (your favorite meal from a Chinese restaurant) and Y (a steaming plate of your own defecation) for dinner want us to believe that they have chosen to make a true statement about free will rather than a false statement.

Not at all. We chose nothing. Neither my favorite meal from a Chinese restaurant (was a steaming plate of my own defecation even an option?) or my statement about freewill. I could do no differently. Just as you had no choice in posting your silly comment here. You had to make your silly comment.

 

[Nous]

I'm somewhat sure that most people have no clear understanding of what motivates them and therefore cannot coherently discuss free will.

Several people on this thread have coherently discussed free will. You should try assimilating their information.

Humans are free to choose to press the yellow button rather than the blue button, no motivation required.

 

[Nous]

We chose nothing.

Prove it.

 

[Nous]

Another wonderful irony is that those who claim or imply that they lack the ability to choose between truth and falsehood are invariably upset when they realize that they’ve chosen to assert a very stupid and self-defeating opinion.

 

[Skwim]

Prove it.

Proof is for mathematics, logic and liquor; however, I will give you my argument. See post 58.

 

[Nous]

Proof is for mathematics, logic and liquor; however, I will give you my argument. See post 58.

What you do prove quite well is that you are unable to choose between truth and falsehood.

 

[Skwim]

What you do prove quite well is that you are unable to choose between truth and falsehood.

Yup. As I say, no one chooses anything. Good for you for picking up on this.

 

[JustWondering]

Our environment and the state of every living thing is a result of previous countless events that simply followed the rules of nature. Does a domino in a chain of dominoes that are falling down get to choose to fall down or not? Just because there is a massive number of factors involved in how we come to the decisions we make doesn't make it a mystical/magical thing that is free from how the rest of the universe works. So free will is an illusion.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Several people on this thread have coherently discussed free will. You should try assimilating their information.

Wow, gee great. I made a really cool point which you ignored.

Humans are free to choose to press the yellow button rather than the blue button, no motivation required.

Really, what part of your mind makes the decision.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In other words, is anything in objective reality truly free from the constraints of some form of Law or Principle acting on them? Like gravity?
This idea takes the discussion in a completely different direction . . . interesting.

This is why I believe in limited free will. We are free to make choices in some areas but willing yourself to levitate most likely will never happen.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

All actions can be explained under a materialist framework that includes how the brain operates...

Perhaps you can answer this for me. Your nose itches. Your hand moves to your nose and scratched it. What part of you made the decision to scratch?

 

[George-ananda]

Perhaps you can answer this for me. Your nose itches. Your hand moves to your nose and scratched it. What part of you made the decision to scratch?

That can be explained by a sequence of materialist events. Our thinking brain region tells us to scratch and our brain directs the hand.

But I am actually not a materialist myself as I believe consciousness involves elements beyond the material. I am just saying the materialist could offer an explanation (an incomplete one in my estimation).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Same is true of the series of events leading up to moment of going one way or the other. They were what they were and not something else. This means it was inevitable that one chose to go left rather than right. One simply couldn't have gone right. One HAD TO go left.

This seems to be a hindsight observation. One turned right so of course all of the events leading to it lead to a right turn showing causation. Is this what you are saying?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That can be explained by a sequence of materialist events. Our thinking brain region tells us to scratch and our brain directs the hand.

But I am actually not a materialist myself as I believe consciousness involves elements beyond the material. I am just saying the materialist could offer an explanation (an incomplete one in my estimation).

But I could have chosen not to scratch. What function motivates the choice?