Is Fundamentalism a Religious Movement or a Psychological Disorder?

[Sand Dancer]

Evidenced?

I mean that how it is lived out is different, depending on the religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Disorder is as disorder does?

Forest, is that you?

Anyone fundamentalist or reformed, all religion is mental illness.
But then....if 90+% of people have it, then it must be normal.
That makes us heathens abnormal. I give up.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Tell me, Leto, do you have something against being informed before you speak? Read Chapters three and four of Altemeyer's book referenced in the OP, then get back to me when you are at least a fractionally informed on this issue.

Sunstone, I grew up in a fundamentalist family and my social life such as it was was almost entirely comprised of fundamentalists. I'm informed enough on how they think, but your spite and hostility are duly appreciated. I'm not arguing there aren't fundamental differences in how 'fundamentalists' think, but my point is that 'fundamentalists' are comprised of ordinary people. People can and do become fundamentalists, and likewise fundamentalists can and do stop being fundamentalists. "Fundamentalism" is not something transmitted genetically nor do people become fundamentalists randomly. As with any idea or ideology, the majority of people adopt it because it's what they're exposed to. One's friends might be more politically and religiously conservative, which perhaps breaks down one's initial resistance to 'fundamentalism'; then one might hear a particularly stirring sermon or speech and then his course becomes set. Or, more likely, he simply grows up in a fundamentalist environment.

As for the rest, one's beliefs obviously affect how one thinks. Fundamentalists tend to less highly value logic or critical thinking, and generally value a strict hierarchical social order; this is obvious to anyone with eyes. But this is a natural consequence of their beliefs. People change in these respects when they become fundamentalists or cease to be; fundamentalism is more so the cause, rather than symptom, of these changes.

 

[Sunstone]

I think it's a little bit of both in that it's a religious movement fueled by a phsycological disorder.

Very likely. I am coming to think of fundamentalism as a religious movement piggybacking on a psychological disorder.

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone, I grew up in a fundamentalist family and my social life such as it was was almost entirely comprised of fundamentalists. I'm informed enough on how they think, but your spite and hostility are duly appreciated. I'm not arguing there aren't fundamental differences in how 'fundamentalists' think, but my point is that 'fundamentalists' are comprised of ordinary people. People can and do become fundamentalists, and likewise fundamentalists can and do stop being fundamentalists. "Fundamentalism" is not something transmitted genetically nor do people become fundamentalists randomly. As with any idea or ideology, the majority of people adopt it because it's what they're exposed to. One's friends might be more politically and religiously conservative, which perhaps breaks down one's initial resistance to 'fundamentalism'; then one might hear a particularly stirring sermon or speech and then his course becomes set.

As for the rest, one's beliefs obviously affect how one thinks. Fundamentalists tend to less highly value logic or critical thinking, and generally value a strict hierarchical social order; this is obvious to anyone with eyes. But this is a natural consequence of their beliefs. People change in these respects when they become fundamentalists or cease to be; fundamentalism is more so the cause, rather than symptom, of these changes.

Good to know you are better informed than the scientists these days. After all, you grew up with a few dozen fundamentalists. That certain makes you quite an impressive research psychologist, in my book.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Good to know you are better informed than the scientists these days. After all, you grew up with a few dozen fundamentalists. That certain makes you quite an impressive research psychologist, in my book.

I at least have seen enough of the world not to believe people I disagree with are mentally retarded.

 

[crossfire]

As I see it, fundamentalism closes the mind to other possibilities. Any fundamentalist view, religious or nay, are, IMO, a product of succumbing to the ego. A disorder? Depends on ones perspective, I suppose.

The linked pdf deals with authoritarianism specificically.
I would say authoritarianism is more of a devotion to superego function, specifically: superego ("perfection principle") vs id ("pleasure principle,") with the superego seen as superior to the point that even when the paradigm does not harmonize with reality (ego functions are also called the "reality principle") the superego turns against the ego and allows delusion in.

Fundamentalism can also go the other way in devotion to the id/pleasure principle. Buddhism is the middle way between devotion to self affliction (superego function) and devotion to sensual pleasure (id function) to produce insight (ego functions.)

 

[Sunstone]

I at least have seen enough of the world not to believe people I disagree with are mentally retarded.

At least I would not intentionally misscharacterize the views of someone I disagreed with. What reasonable grounds do you have for your seemingly angry and scurrilous allegation that I am saying fundamentalists are "mentally retarded" simply because I disagree with them? Are you not making a bad faith assumption about me that is also an illogical and unfounded claim?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is liberalism a political movement or a psychological disorder?

I'm no liker of fundamentalism, but the fact that people have drastically different thoughts and beliefs than you do isn't cause to suggest they have a mental disorder. You should know better, @Sunstone.

It's not believing different, but rather inducing what would otherwise be considered a mental illness, and in some cases it should definitely be if the result is anti-social behaviors.

 

[Duke_Leto]

At least I would not intentionally misscharacterize the views of someone I disagreed with. What reasonable grounds do you have for your seemingly angry and scurrilous allegation that I am saying fundamentalists are "mentally retarded" simply because I disagree with them? Are you not making a bad faith assumption about me that is also an illogical and unfounded claim?

There's a certain irony in your response that I'll leave for you to puzzle out. Regardless, I don't see any way to characterize your stance except as a belief that fundamentalists are retarded in the classical sense. Feel free to correct my misunderstanding.

 

[crossfire]

There is a precedent in the Tao Te Ching stating that authoritarianism and strict governance will make the people clever in that they will devise ways to get around the government controls, whereas lax and simple government will make the people simple in regards to getting around government controls.

This may have a correlation in the west with conservatives thinking liberals are dumb (libtards) and liberals thinking conservatives are narrow minded.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Duke_Leto]

It's not believing different, but rather inducing what would otherwise be considered a mental illness, and in some cases it should definitely be if the result is anti-social behaviors.

I'm skeptical of 'mental illness' as a concept, so that's perhaps why I'm irked so much by this thread. Are anti-social behaviors "mental illness"? Is stupidity "mental illness"? How are we to define the term? Is it simply anything we don't consider 'normal'?

 

[Sunstone]

There's a certain irony in your response that I'll leave for you to puzzle out. Regardless, I don't see any way to characterize your stance except as a belief that fundamentalists are retarded in the classical sense. Feel free to correct my misunderstanding.

Nowhere did I characterize fundamentalists as "mentally retarded" or "retarded in the classical sense". Nowhere have I argued that we should characterize fundamentalism as a psychological disorder merely because we disagree with it.

I have urged you to read up on a bit of the science concerning this subject. You have refused.

Sir, you have been reading me from the very start of this thread with what seems to be a bad faith intent to misunderstand and misrepresent my views. I will have no more to do with you or your detestable behavior. You may now claim victory in the exact same sense that creationists "win" every evolution/creation debate.

 

[Duke_Leto]

Nowhere did I characterize fundamentalists as "mentally retarded" or "retarded in the classical sense". Nowhere have I argued that we should characterize fundamentalism as a psychological disorder merely because we disagree with it.

Then I apologize, but I genuinely don't see any other way to understand your opinion. Again, you're welcome to clarify your stance and rescue me from my ignorance.

I have urged you to read up on a bit of the science concerning this subject. You have refused.

I read the sections you suggested of the PDF that you linked.

Sir, you have been reading me from the very start of this thread with what seems to be a bad faith intent to misunderstand and misrepresent my views. I will have no more to do with you or your detestable behavior. You may now claim victory in the exact same sense that creationists "win" every evolution/creation debate.

Lol. I don't share your tendency for the dramatic, so I won't talk with you if that's what you'd prefer. See you.

 

[firedragon]

Is fundamentalism a religious movement or a psychological disorder?

The four most studied fundamentalisms by scientists and scholars are the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Hindu variations of the phenomenon. There is a wide range of informed opinion about fundamentalism, but most people find fundamentalism remarkably similar regardless of which religion it is associated with.

There is indeed some scientific support for the possibility fundamentalism is more of a psychological disorder than a religion or religious movement. For instance, see Chapters Three (page 75), Four (page 106), and related pages in Robert Altemeyer's introduction to authoritarianism, which can be found here (pdf).

As for myself, I believe calling fundamentalism a "religion" might be like calling Bipolar Mood Disorder a "philosophy". The evidence seems headed in that direction.

EDIT: As I remarked to Dave in a post in this thread: It seems likely to me that fundamentalism might be characterized as a religious movement piggybacking on a psychological disorder.

Your thoughts?*



*Please read Chapters Three and Four in Altemeyer before responding -- unless you are very familiar with the science on this subject.

How do "you" define fundamentalism?

 

[Curious George]

Nowhere did I characterize fundamentalists as "mentally retarded" or "retarded in the classical sense". Nowhere have I argued that we should characterize fundamentalism as a psychological disorder merely because we disagree with it.

I have urged you to read up on a bit of the science concerning this subject. You have refused.

Sir, you have been reading me from the very start of this thread with what seems to be a bad faith intent to misunderstand and misrepresent my views. I will have no more to do with you or your detestable behavior. You may now claim victory in the exact same sense that creationists "win" every evolution/creation debate.

My two cents...you are trying to discuss this with someone who is holding some strong preconceived notions on "psychological disorders."

In law the term retardation is still used to denote a lack of mental capacity. The term retard was classically viewed as "slow in cognitive ability. " There was a time when people believed most with psychological disorders (and even some with physical disorders) were slow in cognitive function.

This term was then used to categorize all people with psychological disorders by laymen.

So, suggesting that someone has a psychological disorder is equivalent to saying they are mentally retarded (to some folks not willing to try to understand actual meaning). So saying psychological disorder=mental disability=retardation as far as some are concerned.

I do not think that you can get past this bias for some readers. Sometimes you must accept that your meaning and intent will be misunderstood.

 

[Phaedrus]

Sometimes people reach because they are subconsciously prone to self-persecution.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm skeptical of 'mental illness' as a concept,

Why? What of them are you skeptical about?

How are we to define the term?

It's been researched and defined. One of the major "must haves" is that it impairs day-to-day functioning, such as borderline personality disorder, which among other things, basically makes someone a "Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde." Bipolar disorder 1 comes with mood swings of depression and mania, and the mania comes with psychotic symptoms such as grandiose thoughts and hallucinations. Autism is a disorder than can impair social function, up to profound levels of impairment.

Is it simply anything we don't consider 'normal'?

Yes and no. Feeling anxious around other people is normal, but when the anxieties become crippling and makes a person socially withdraw, that is not normal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then I apologize, but I genuinely don't see any other way to understand your opinion. Again, you're welcome to clarify your stance and rescue me from my ignorance.

You may want to educate yourself about mental health and illness if you thought Sunstone was implying fundamentalists are retarded.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There's a certain irony in your response that I'll leave for you to puzzle out. Regardless, I don't see any way to characterize your stance except as a belief that fundamentalists are retarded in the classical sense. Feel free to correct my misunderstanding.

Mentally ill is not retarded in the classical sense.