Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[angellous_evangellous]

For heaven's sake, criticizing their beliefs doesn't mean sharing them, angellous.

Reading it the same way as they do is. :sad:

Mindlessly rejecting their reading without considering alternatives is just as obtuse.

 

[Autodidact]

These men, Joshua, Moses, and so forth, are portrayes as heroes (whether real or fictional, it doesn't matter.) These are the righteous men, beloved of God, whom we are to emulate and name our children after. And they are mass murderers. The behavior that this book glorifies is morally reprehensible behavior.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

These men, Joshua, Moses, and so forth, are portrayes as heroes (whether real or fictional, it doesn't matter.) These are the righteous men, beloved of God, whom we are to emulate and name our children after. And they are mass murderers. The behavior that this book glorifies is morally reprehensible behavior.

 

[Autodidact]

Reading it the same way as they do is. :sad:

Mindlessly rejecting their reading without considering alternatives is just as obtuse.

How else can you read it? True or false, history or mythology, it describes the repeated annihilation of entire groups of human beings, from babies to the elderly, for no other reason than that "God gave you this land." What do you read it to say, whether true or not?

Many people (because they don't actually read the Bible) do not realize what a large theme this is in the OT. It's not an occasional passage. There are entire books that basically read: They went to battle against this Thisites and killed them all. Then they fought the Thosites, and killed all of them. After that they had a little trouble with Theotherthingites, but eventually wiped them out as well. It goes on and on in this vein, and it's horrific. Here's another sample:

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31

That's what the Bible teaches.

 

[painted wolf]

These men, Joshua, Moses, and so forth, are portrayes as heroes (whether real or fictional, it doesn't matter.) These are the righteous men, beloved of God, whom we are to emulate and name our children after. And they are mass murderers. The behavior that this book glorifies is morally reprehensible behavior.

They are also shown as deeply flawed and not the best role models.

That's what the Bible teaches.

That is what part of the OT has in one of it's stories.... that's like saying Huck Fin is a racist tome.

wa:do

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31

That's what the Bible teaches.

This is boring and depressing.

It's like when someone finally realizes that Christianity has parallels with Mithras or Horus but being overwhelmed with carelessness and laziness, fails to explore any interpretation other than their uninformed virulent criticisms.

Just go on hating the text, it's ok. Urinate on its beauty, deficate on its treasure.

 

[Caladan]

These men, Joshua, Moses, and so forth, are portrayes as heroes (whether real or fictional, it doesn't matter.) These are the righteous men, beloved of God, whom we are to emulate and name our children after. And they are mass murderers. The behavior that this book glorifies is morally reprehensible behavior.

Thats a very single dimensional way of looking at biblical characters. many biblical characters present military genius, strength of character, self sacrifice and mainly an all too human character, from the top spiritual leaders to the top monarchs, the Bible always makes sure to display its 'heroes' as very human individuals, with flaws.

How else can you read it? True or false, history or mythology, it describes the repeated annihilation of entire groups of human beings, from babies to the elderly, for no other reason than that "God gave you this land." What do you read it to say, whether true or not?

Many people (because they don't actually read the Bible) do not realize what a large theme this is in the OT. It's not an occasional passage. There are entire books that basically read: They went to battle against this Thisites and killed them all. Then they fought the Thosites, and killed all of them. After that they had a little trouble with Theotherthingites, but eventually wiped them out as well. It goes on and on in this vein, and it's horrific. Here's another sample:

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31

That's what the Bible teaches.

Again, thats highly selective and single dimensional. the Bible has much more than that. books such as Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs, have not reached such a universal status in our Arts for nothing. as an atheist, im not ashamed to say that its practically a sin to butcher the Bible like this, without full knowledge of its content. as I said earlier, the great Masters of the Renaissance have not based some of their most celebrated art on biblical scenes in vain.

 

[Autodidact]

They are also shown as deeply flawed and not the best role models.

But not in this regard. They are considered flawed when they disobey God, and extolled when they obey him. Remember when God gets mad at the soldiers because they took mercy on the babies, and sent them back to finish the job? One virtue is elevated above all: obedience to God, even when it violates natural human compassion.

That is what part of the OT has in one of it's stories.... that's like saying Huck Fin is a racist tome.

As I was saying, it's a big part. It's one of the major themes, actually. I would say that Huck Finn is anti-racist, if anything.

 

[Autodidact]

This is boring and depressing.

It's like when someone finally realizes that Christianity has parallels with Mithras or Horus but being overwhelmed with carelessness and laziness, fails to explore any interpretation other than their uninformed virulent criticisms.

Just go on hating the text, it's ok. Urinate on its beauty, deficate on its treasure.

Yuck. Anyway, it's not that there's not beautiful stuff in there too, but that's not what we're discussing now. What you're avoiding talking about is that one of the major themes of the OT is the glorification of mass murder when commanded by God. And yes, it is depressing. What's boring is being forced to demonstrate the obvious, while adherents steadily turn their heads away. Now that we've established the obvious: that it makes no difference whether it actually happened, that it actually meets the definition of genocide, that it takes up pages and pages of text, that it's horrific, that it's glorified, maybe we can have an interesting discussion about the moral implications of that, especially for modern Jews and Christians.

 

[Autodidact]

Thats a very single dimensional way of looking at biblical characters. many biblical characters present military genius, strength of character, self sacrifice and mainly an all too human character, from the top spiritual leaders to the top monarchs, the Bible always makes sure to display its 'heroes' as very human individuals, with flaws.


Again, thats highly selective and single dimensional. the Bible has much more than that. books such as Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs, have not reached such a universal status in our Arts for nothing. as an atheist, im not ashamed to say that its practically a sin to butcher the Bible like this, without full knowledge of its content. as I said earlier, the great Masters of the Renaissance have not based some of their most celebrated art on biblical scenes in vain.

Yes, yes, there's a lot of other stuff in there too. There's even some nice stuff. However, this thread isn't about that, it's about the genocide stuff. Can we talk about that?

As for biblical heroes being "human," in the Bible, "human" would be failing to obey God's orders. Insofar as they obey them, they are glorified and rewarded. That's a major theme of the OT: "I am God. Comply with my commandments, and I will make you mighty; you will previai over your enemies. Disobey me, and I will punish, possibly annihilate you."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yuck. Anyway, it's not that there's not beautiful stuff in there too, but that's not what we're discussing now. What you're avoiding talking about is that one of the major themes of the OT is the glorification of mass murder when commanded by God. And yes, it is depressing. What's boring is being forced to demonstrate the obvious, while adherents steadily turn their heads away. Now that we've established the obvious: that it makes no difference whether it actually happened, that it actually meets the definition of genocide, that it takes up pages and pages of text, that it's horrific, that it's glorified, maybe we can have an interesting discussion about the moral implications of that, especially for modern Jews and Christians.

Well, one thing can be staightened out.

I don't need you for anything related to the interpretation of these passages. I know that they are there, I've read them several times and reflected on them deeply, reading them not only in English but also in their textual and intepretative history in both Judaism and Christianity.

It's the height of arrogance to take it upon yourself to inform people of faith about their book, especially when you hardly know a damn thing about it. It's insulting and insipid to mix your contempt of it with your ignorance.

If you want to read it with idiots, fine. Do it... and I have not refused to talk about it for one second on this thread. I have been frustrated in repeating myself, however.

If you want to use the darkness of the text to find the darkness in your own soul, then I would say that you're on a better track. These texts are recognized as art, a part of several religions that people have used successfully to fulfill the command of the Delphic oracle "know thyself."

Is there any darkness inside of you? You can find it with this.

 

[Caladan]

One virtue is elevated above all: obedience to God, even when it violates natural human compassion.

Actually, right from the beginning of the Bible, the book of Genesis displays one of the interesting themes in Judaism: that the eating of the forbidden fruit and the defiance against God, was a 'positive sin' and promoted humanity, making humanity what it is. without violating God's order not to eat from the tree of Knowledge, it is said, humanity would not expand its consciousness.

 

[Caladan]

It's the height of arrogance to take it upon yourself to inform people of faith about their book, especially when you hardly know a damn thing about it. It's insulting and insipid to mix your contempt of it with your ignorance.

I feel somewhat differently. I think the Bible, in the spirit of its universality is not exclusively in the hands of any group of believers. I believe its a heritage of humanity. what I do find troubling, is that secular people who claim higher intellectuality are incapable of making arguments in regards to the bible which are more sophisticated than those of fundamentalists. I simply see ignorance from the two ends of the scale, without the endless colors which lay in between, without the ocean of content between these two ends.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I feel somewhat differently. I think the Bible, in the spirit of its universality is not exclusively in the hands of any group of believers. I believe its a heritage of humanity. what I do find troubling, is that secular people who claim higher intellectuality are incapable of making arguments in regards to the bible which are more sophisticated than those of fundamentalists. I simply see ignorance from the two ends of the scale, without the endless colors which lay in between, without the ocean of content between these two ends.

Unfortunately that's not what is happening here.

 

[Caladan]

Yet this is little more than "let's talk about something that should make you uncomfortable."

And we're going to use hostile interpretative methods, using (even exagerating) the same interpretative techniques of the most intellectually inept people in your religion.

Yeap, I think that if an intellectual protest or strike is needed, then let the target be the inellectually inept in a religion, instead of chasing a ghost and shooting ourselves in the foot. I think that by mature and educated study of the bible, the scriptures actually slip more and more away from the 'intellectually inept and into the light of the academia, debate, historiography, and the fine research this subject deserves.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yeap, I think that if an intellectual protest or strike is needed, then let the target be the inellectually inept in a religion, instead of chasing a ghost and shooting ourselves in the foot. I think that by mature and educated study of the bible, the scriptures actually slip more and more away from the 'intellectually inept and into the light of the academia, debate, historiography, and the fine research this subject deserves.

I've obviously edited that post while you were responding. I'll stand by what I said, though.

I also don't want to say that only academics can come up with a good interpretation of the Bible. It does help, because an academic has somewhat easier access to certain things that helps interpretation like a knowledge of religious history and interpretation.

But more than that, religious history is ongoing. Just as the ancient Hebrews did not kill entire towns and take their virgins, so no modern Hebrew is calling for similar action today. Just as they committed no genocide in the past, they are not trying to do it now. This isn't rocket science, and one does not need to be an academic...

 

[Autodidact]

Well, one thing can be staightened out.

I don't need you for anything related to the interpretation of these passages. I know that they are there, I've read them several times and reflected on them deeply, reading them not only in English but also in their textual and intepretative history in both Judaism and Christianity.

It's the height of arrogance to take it upon yourself to inform people of faith about their book, especially when you hardly know a damn thing about it. It's insulting and insipid to mix your contempt of it with your ignorance.

Who's informing anyone of anything? We're just trying to get people to address them. So far you've pointed out that they're not factual (duh), and you've tried to argue that it isn't genocide, but what you haven't said is how Christianity (and Judaism) should deal with a holy text that extols and commands genocide. The question remains unanswered and virtually undiscussed: Is it moral to commit an atrocity if God commands you to?

If you want to read it with idiots, fine. Do it... and I have not refused to talk about it for one second on this thread. I have been frustrated in repeating myself, however.

Although you haven't engaged with the difficult question.

If you want to use the darkness of the text to find the darkness in your own soul, then I would say that you're on a better track. These texts are recognized as art, a part of several religions that people have used successfully to fulfill the command of the Delphic oracle "know thyself."

Unfortunately, that's not the only command this particular religion is about, not by a long shot.

Is there any darkness inside of you? You can find it with this.

Uh, O.K., but I repeat, in this book, these actions are not seen as "dark," they are seen as virtuous. That's the problem you haven't addressed. Do you see these actions as virtuous? Do you subscribe to a religion whose holy book does?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Although you haven't engaged with the difficult question.

It's not my fault you haven't read the thread.

I've said exactly how a Christian should deal with it, you've simply ignored it or are incapable of interacting with it.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually, right from the beginning of the Bible, the book of Genesis displays one of the interesting themes in Judaism: that the eating of the forbidden fruit and the defiance against God, was a 'positive sin' and promoted humanity, making humanity what it is. without violating God's order not to eat from the tree of Knowledge, it is said, humanity would not expand its consciousness.

I'd say that's a teeny tiny eensy weensy minority interpretation. The mainstream teaching (the one I got as a child) was that they disobeyed God, which is wrong, and so were punished, along with the rest of us therafter.

 

[Caladan]

I've obviously edited that post while you were responding. I'll stand by what I said, though.

I also don't want to say that only academics can come up with a good interpretation of the Bible. It does help, because an academic has somewhat easier access to certain things that helps interpretation like a knowledge of religious history and interpretation.

But more than that, religious history is ongoing. Just as the ancient Hebrews did not kill entire towns and take their virgins, so no modern Hebrew is calling for similar action today. Just as they committed no genocide in the past, they are not trying to do it now. This isn't rocket science, and one does not need to be an academic...

I think that at the very least, intelligent people should find this as basics. I would not want world scriptures to be hijacked by fundamentalists or by the academia, this is a heritage for mankind... what good enough reason do we have to deny ourselves this insight into the history and development of our own cognitive dimension.