Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[Autodidact]

You don't understand how it's anti-Semetic to wonder if it's ok for Jews to commit genocide if God tells them to?

Dude, think things through.

The question is, is it O.K. for you to commit genocide if God tells you to. Is it O.K. for you to belong to a religion that holds that it is?

 

[Autodidact]

Sheesh.

Tell me, have you ever read Euripides or Homer?

No one's trying to base current policy--or morality--on Homer. At least, not enough people to worry about. But I agree, the Bible has about as much veracity and value as Homer.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Autodidact, I love your quote, Thomas Jefferson is in my top 5 favorite quoters.

Question: When was the last genocide? I only remember two in a relatively close time to our's, Hitler's Genocide on Jews, and I forgot the guy's name, I think it was Saddam who had a genocide on Shiites, or Sunni's.

It is depressing how many people still are not aware of the Rwandan genocide.

 

[Autodidact]

Maybe the Israelites were continually pestered by other idol worshipping tribes that attributed their victories to their gods, and the Israelites both imaginatively vented their frustrations in their myths, aggrandized their victories, and exaggerated their defeats in mythological terminology.

Just a guess.

Exactly. That's exactly what I think was really going on. Now, if only the rest of the world would treat it that way, instead of taking it as the word of God, a holy text, guide to morality, not to mention science book and political treatise.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No one's trying to base current policy--or morality--on Homer. At least, not enough people to worry about. But I agree, the Bible has about as much veracity and value as Homer.

I dunno... for ethics, I'm shooting for Euripides.. or not so much ethics, but the relationship between philosophy and theology. Due to Neitzsche's influence on the post-modern psyche and the profound inspiration that he found in Greek tragedy, Euripides speaks more directly to the post-modern soul than Homer.

 

[Clover]

It is depressing how many people still are not aware of the Rwandan genocide.

Thanks for telling me of a new one, although could have done without part of it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What people believe matters--it affects their behavior. Millions of Jews (Muslims and Christians) died because of what medieval Christians believed about the Bible. It matters.

And millions have died because of what modern atheists believed. And millions have lived because of a religiously imbued sense of tzedakah, charity, and zakat. Thanks for sharing ... :yes:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

And millions have died because of what modern atheists believed. And millions have lived because of a religiously imbued sense of tzedakah, charity, and zakat. Thanks for sharing ... :yes:

But moralizing atheists are so adorable.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But moralizing atheists are so adorable.

While being so demoralized ... :yes:

 

[Caladan]

angellous: The Bible is full of falsehood from start to finish.

Sure, if you are looking for answers to quantum mechanic problems.
The Bible is not full of falsehood, if you read it maturely, because it is a text which includes many genres, ideologies, literature, and authors.. it is an ideological text and as such, 'falsehood' becomes meaningless, you have ideas, poetry, and yes even propaganda... great insight into the history of humanity, because we were so unbelievable lucky that the ancient Judeans and Israelites wrote their ideas on text.
while you may choose to fight windmills, and throw the bible because it doesnt fit your sterile agendas, other people are not willing to throw away this priceless piece, which has been a timeless gem in the history of human landscape.

Obviously, I don't believe any of it, I'm an atheist.

I am an atheist, and I still can find parts of the bible to be very valuable in giving us historical insights, especially when put together with further ancient near easter annals, chronologies (such as the Assyrian ones), and epigraphy.
The factor of believing it as infallible is simple irrelevant when you are ready to put aside the debate between fundamentalists, and theologically ill equipped yet brilliant scientists and humanists.

I also don't believe the Q'uran. I do believe that 3000 Americans are dead because of what other people believe about it. What people believe matters--it affects their behavior. Millions of Jews (Muslims and Christians) died because of what medieval Christians believed about the Bible. It matters.

I think thats overreaching. I dont think we should be so quick to summarize the entire scope of injustices and atrocities of entire societies on scriptures. what about politics? fight over territory and resources? and a variety of social strifes?
do I think the Bible or the Qur'an can be misused? sure, just like anything else. its all in the context people give it, and how mature they are in reading it, if they are not mature enough, you can be sure they would act in cruelty with or without scriptures.
Im actually in the opinion that the bible has many beautiful and uplifting passages in it, which have been immortalized in our arts, music and literature.

 

[painted wolf]

Well, but no one's suggesting we base our conduct, let alone the governance of our nation, on the Epic of Gilgamesh.

We have our own bellicose chest thumping origin myths.

wa:do

 

[Perfect Circle]

No, he's not asserting that any of this actually happened, merely that the OT relates that it did. Do you deny that? Consider it fictional if you like, that's not the point. The fictional character, Yahweh, fictionally ordered the fictional Hebrews to commit fictional genocide, over and over. Was it moral for the Hebrews to fictionally comply with this fictional order? Or actual order, whatever your personal belief is.

Holy crap! Backup!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Holy crap! Backup!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLZQ3OLEJWE&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0UJaprpxrk

 

[Perfect Circle]

Are you trying to assert that according to the OT, God does not order multiple genocides?

You mean, if you wipe out an entire small nation of people, it's not genocide, only mass murder? Is that what you're arguing?

Uh, O.K. fine. The Bible commands mass murder and infanticide, praises those who follow God's commandments in committing them, and expresses God's anger at those who refuse. Therefore, is it moral to commit mass murder and infanticide if God commands you to?

It doesn't matter whether there ever was a Joshua. What matters is that there is a religion that believes there was, that he repeatedly committed genocide, and that was consonant with God's will--the God they worship. Further, that by doing so, Joshua was a righteous, Godly man.

angellous: The Bible is full of falsehood from start to finish. Obviously, I don't believe any of it, I'm an atheist. I also don't believe the Q'uran. I do believe that 3000 Americans are dead because of what other people believe about it. What people believe matters--it affects their behavior. Millions of Jews (Muslims and Christians) died because of what medieval Christians believed about the Bible. It matters.

 

[Perfect Circle]

YouTube - The Best of 1966 Batman/Bruce Waynehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0UJaprpxrk

Wait a minute.... that isn't christian bale!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Glad you feel better ... :yes:

 

[Perfect Circle]

Glad you feel better ... :yes:

Awww... Shucks. You want a hug too?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It doesn't matter whether there ever was a Joshua. What matters is that there is a religion that believes there was, that he repeatedly committed genocide, and that was consonant with God's will--the God they worship. Further, that by doing so, Joshua was a righteous, Godly man.

There's no good reason to share in the stupidity of people who read the stories of Joshua literally to the extent that they are glorifiying a God that actually exists who commanded Joshua to commit genocides that he actually carried out. Basing public policy on such terror is all but completely foreign to modern politics, because it is well out of the range of contemporary Christianity and Judaism.

If there are reasonably minded people who actually believe this, they can be persuaded of their foolishness quite easily by remedial education in ancient archaeology and biblical interpretation.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Awww... Shucks. You want a hug too?

If you get one hug from Jay, you'll never need another one again.:yes:

 

[Perfect Circle]

There's no good reason to share in the stupidity of people who read the stories of Joshua literally to the extent that they are glorifiying a God that actually exists who commanded Joshua to commit genocides that he actually carried out. Basing public policy on such terror is all but completely foreign to modern politics, because it is well out of the range of contemporary Christianity and Judaism.

If there are reasonably minded people who actually believe this, they can be persuaded of their foolishness quite easily by remedial education in ancient archaeology and biblical interpretation.

I agree. But I don't think anyone is arguing that any modern state bases their public policy on such things. However, it's only through a long, arduous, bloody, 3000 years of history that people have been persuaded to not take it literally. What's more, is there are people who wield considerable power in the modern world (i.e. Pat Robertson), who may not condone participating in such a genocide, but do justify the biblical one.