Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[Jakaceel]

i had this debate in another thread, but that one seems to have vanished, so i thought id create this one.

when conquering Palestine, the Hebrews committed genocide against a number of peoples there. and this wasnt long after he gave them the commandments telling them not to kill.

of course i dont believe this, i believe its an excuse the Hebrews used to excuse their genocide. but, for the sake of argument, lets say the order did come from god, did that make it ok? shouldnt an order like this be a sure sign that your god is evil? or does having him on your side matter more?

Evil and good is defined by God. What we think is right or wrong is not law, but What God says to do is just, afterall he is GOD.

 

[Humanistheart]

Evil and good is defined by God. What we think is right or wrong is not law, but What God says to do is just, afterall he is GOD.

What are you basing this on? And which god are you reffering to? No god can be objectively held as a standard for ethical behavoir. A god has an opinion on what's right and wrong so this must be correct... why? All you've said is, he's god, so he must be just. This starts with a presumption that has not been backed by evidence or logic.

 

[Beaudreaux]

If God tells you to commit a genocide on a group of people then you should close your ears and not listen because it's not God. The whole idea of a genocide completely contradicts God's principles of love.

Indeed. God would NEVER permit a genocide to happen on HIS watch.

 

[Humanistheart]

Indeed. God would NEVER permit a genocide to happen on HIS watch.

Genocide occurs quite often. It's happening in africa right now. Not on gods watch? So what, did he just step out for a coffe the last houndred years or so? Or do people like africans and indegenous people's around the world not count?

In the bible he orders genocide, so I'm curious how you'd come to the conclusion that he'd be against it? He himself causes several genocides such as the flood and sodam and gamora's destruction.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Obviously against jewish and christian teaching?

...And if you think genocide is not a part of christian teaching perhaps your forgetting the imfamous cathlic slogan during the crusades "Kill them all and let god sort out his own" which they did. Men, women, and children, christians jews and muslims, all were slaughtered at the hands of the catholic church. And sadly this is only one of many many examples.

However, with that said it is true that the jewish people have amazingly civil restrictions for when they wage war. Very progressive particularly for the time in which they were established.

Well, can you show how this is currently a part of Christian teaching (or even ancient Christian teaching)?


Associating this with Christians today is no less childish and intellectually irresponsible as if I were to associate you with Stalin, the atheist who killed more than 35 million people. Stalin's brutality should cause one to think twice about the legitimacy of a moralizing atheist.

EDIT: And in case you've forgotten, the Crusades happened almost a thousand years ago, whereas Stalin killed his millions in the modern era.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In the bible he orders genocide, so I'm curious how you'd come to the conclusion that he'd be against it? He himself causes several genocides such as the flood and sodam and gamora's destruction.

The Tanakh is laced with etiological tales and political bombast that are, at best, tangential to history. To read it as something other than this is to approach it in the most superficial and childish manner whether or not you believe in the G-d of Abraham. Equally ignorant is to believe/pretend that the 'normative' Judaism as it evolved during the close of the 2nd Temple Period is nothing more than the oral landscape offered up centuries earlier.

The bottom line is this: There is qualitatively more to be drawn from the narrative of Abraham's struggle with God than from petty efforts to denigrate Jewish scripture.

 

[Perfect Circle]

The Tanakh is laced with etiological tales and political bombast that are, at best, tangential to history. To read it as something other than this is to approach it in the most superficial and childish manner whether or not you believe in the G-d of Abraham. Equally ignorant is to believe/pretend that the 'normative' Judaism as it evolved during the close of the 2nd Temple Period is nothing more than the oral landscape offered up centuries earlier.

The bottom line is this: There is qualitatively more to be drawn from the narrative of Abraham's struggle with God than from petty efforts to denigrate Jewish scripture.

I agree with your bottom line, but the OP has a point. Childish though it may be, millions if not billions of people around the world draw their moral foundation from the bible, and the bible specifically portrays God not only allowing, but ordering what is essentially a Genocide. Whether or not it actually happened (which I admit is very unlikely) is immaterial.

Furthermore, I think a few people are responding a bit defensively. I don't read any anti-semitism in the OP at all. All I'm seeing is someone wording what is essentially the "Euthyphro Dilemma" (as you mentioned earlier ) differently.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I agree with your bottom line, but the OP has a point. Childish though it may be, millions if not billions of people around the world draw their moral foundation from the bible, and the bible specifically portrays God not only allowing, but ordering what is essentially a Genocide. Whether or not it actually happened (which I admit is very unlikely) is immaterial.

It most certainly is. The bible has been abused, and people have killed in the name of its God, but millions more have been killed under a single atheist (Stalin) and to atheist Russia we can add atheist China. Atheism has been far deadlier to humanity than Christianity - or any other religion for that matter.

Furthermore, I think a few people are responding a bit defensively. I don't read any anti-semitism in the OP at all. All I'm seeing is someone wording what is essentially the "Euthyphro Dilemma" (as you mentioned earlier ) differently.

I dunno - people react to thoughtless things differently.

Anti-semetic or not, the OP is not very well conceived.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Furthermore, I think a few people are responding a bit defensively. I don't read any anti-semitism in the OP at all.

Nor do I. Perhaps I overlooked the post where this was claimed. To whom are you referring? As far as the OP is concerned, statements like ...

when conquering Palestine, the Hebrews committed genocide against a number of peoples there. and this wasnt long after he gave them the commandments telling them not to kill. of course i dont believe this, i believe its an excuse the Hebrews used to excuse their genocide.

are not necessarily antisemitic but they are remarkably thoughtless, stupid, and denigrating.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Nor do I. Perhaps I overlooked the post where this was claimed. To whom are you referring? As far as the OP is concerned, statements like ...

​

are not necessarily antisemitic but they are remarkably thoughtless, stupid, and denigrating.

I was referring to..

...is not positing a hypothetical but spewing ignorant drivel and doing so with an agenda and the clear intent to incite.

...though you don't come out and say it is anti-semitic in so many words, that was the undertone that I read from it. Sorry if I misinterpreted. :sorry1:

Also, I understand that the way the original OP was worded could be offensive, but I don't think he meant it that way. I'm pretty sure that he just noticed that according to pentateuch, God does effectively order a Genocide, and wanted to understand how one could consider God the fountain of morality if he orders such things.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm pretty sure that he just noticed that according to pentateuch, God does effectively order a Genocide, and wanted to understand how one could consider God the fountain of morality if he orders such things.

The stupidity of this statement really is profane.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Anti-semetic or not, the OP is not very well conceived.

Agreed, but it seems like you're needlessly attacking him. He's not arguing that God is evil (at least as I understand it), he's simply asking a question. No one is saying that atheism allows for higher moral standards than scripture, and no one is arguing that stalin was a good guy :no:.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Agreed, but it seems like you're needlessly attacking him. He's not arguing that God is evil (at least as I understand it), he's simply asking a question. No one is saying that atheism allows for higher moral standards than scripture, and no one is arguing that stalin was a good guy :no:.

Moralizing atheists are becoming a bit common here - obviously you have not read this thread.

Obviously against jewish and christian teaching? The original thread was the question of weather or not commiting genocide if god tell's one to is wrong. ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was referring to..

...though you don't come out and say it is anti-semitic in so many words, that was the undertone that I read from it.

You read wrong.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Angellous, I understand you're passionate about this specific topic judging by your previous posts... But let's be realistic. I doubt I need to bring any of this to you're attention, but...

Deuteronomy 7:1-2:
"... the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."

Joshua 6:21:
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword."

How do you interpret these? Because I read genocide loud and clear.

Furthermore...

The stupidity of this statement really is profane.

I'm not seeing your Christian values at work here.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not seeing your Christian values at work here.

Well then look elsewhere.

 

[Perfect Circle]

You read wrong.

I apologize. :sorry1:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Angellous, I understand you're passionate about this specific topic judging by your previous posts... But let's be realistic. I doubt I need to bring any of this to you're attention, but...

Deuteronomy 7:1-2:
"... the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."

Joshua 6:21:
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword."

How do you interpret these? Because I read genocide loud and clear.

Compare this cursory reading with the demographics of ancient cities and the definition of genocide.

Failing to do so before jumping to conclusions is intellectually dishonest and irresponsible.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Well then look elsewhere.

Sorry. I guess shouldn't assume that someone who claims to be Christian would adhere to it's values.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sorry. I guess shouldn't assume that someone who claims to be Christian would adhere to it's values.

One learns something new every day.

In your case, not much.