Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[angellous_evangellous]

First off, let me clarify that I do not wish to attack your religious convictions or offend you in any way. I'm merely trying to understand your view point. So if you could please be patient with me, and help me to see it as you do, maybe this conversation won't degenerate into "mental vomit.":rainbow:

However, as modernly defined, Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

All I am saying is that...

Joshua 10:40-41:
"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon."

Sure sounds like the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. And if I understand your post, it seems like you would argue that a size-able number of people would have to be killed in order for it to be considered genocide? Am I understanding this correctly?

This day is coming for me as sure as the sun rises...

I'll be in front of a class lecturing on something entirely different and a student will ask me about the genocides in the book of Joshua.

Pinch me, kick me, shoot me... anything to wake me up from this nightmare. :biglaugh:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Mr. Circle,

I said earlier that ---

I'm not a Hebrew Bible scholar.

BUT, there are somewhat related texts that can help us, in my opinion, to make sense out of the Hebrew traditions.

The Hebrews only had one God, or at least henotheism, and tried to interpret the world through this one God. So we have God involved in the good, the bad, and the ugly of life. The Hebrews simply incorporated myths of their nation with their theology, some elements of the myth probably happened - there may have been some wars, but nothing like what is in the Bible. And no genocides.

The Greeks did something similar and we see it in Homer and in Euripides - just to name some obvious examples. The gods do all sorts of things, good and bad, and humans interact both positively and negatively with the gods.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Even if it's a myth, and none of it actually took place... Shouldn't a student of the religion still take it as insight into God's character?

Er ... no. :banghead3

 

[JMorris]

let me sarcastically apologize for ever asking the question. like i said, i claim no expertise of the bible or its history. and tho i thought most of the bible was simply made up crap, i didnt know it was even THIS made up. the reason i thought it was true was because a people dont usually admit to committing genocide, much less attributing it to themselves when they didnt even do it.

and anti-semitic? really? i fail to see how my question can be perceived as anti-semitic.

im sorry for ever asking the damn question, i had no idea it would make people so angry. for now on, ill just do what i should of done from the beginning, realize that the bible is comepletly made up, and holds no facts at all.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why were there no genocides?

Two major reasons:

1) Killing was not as effective. It was impossible in the ancient world to kill on the level that is commonly associated with today's genocides.

2) Just as importantly, a genocide in the ancient world goes completely against everything that we know about ancient warfare. The cities were less inhabited, and a conquering force needed some of their men, women, children, and other resources from the conquered people (contrary to what the book of Joshua says in your selected verse).

The overwhelming archaeological and epigraphical evidence and the interpretations by social historians indicates that conquered peoples and conquerers shared common cultures - they influenced eachother - rather than sought to wipe eachother off the face of the earth (= modern genocide).

Total destruction is a new concept, as well as the ability to do it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

let me sarcastically apologize for ever asking the question. like i said, i claim no expertise of the bible or its history. and tho i thought most of the bible was simply made up crap, i didnt know it was even THIS made up. the reason i thought it was true was because a people dont usually admit to committing genocide, much less attributing it to themselves when they didnt even do it.

and anti-semitic? really? i fail to see how my question can be perceived as anti-semitic.

im sorry for ever asking the damn question, i had no idea it would make people so angry. for now on, ill just do what i should of done from the beginning, realize that the bible is comepletly made up, and holds no facts at all.

You don't understand how it's anti-Semetic to wonder if it's ok for Jews to commit genocide if God tells them to?

Dude, think things through.

 

[JMorris]

You don't understand how it's anti-Semetic to wonder if it's ok for Jews to commit genocide if God tells them to?

Dude, think things through.

hmmmm..... maybe i can after all, but thats not how i meant it.

i wasnt trying to make a parallel with nazis.

i was asking the question because its what it says in the bible. who else was i to ask the question about?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

for now on, ill just do what i should of done from the beginning, realize that the bible is comepletly made up, and holds no facts at all.

And you would be no less wrong. A third option might be to actually study and think, but that requires effort ...

 

[JMorris]

And you would be no less wrong. A third option might be to actually study and think, but that requires effort ...

why waste effort studying a made up book? to avoid your insults? i wouldnt want to do that, i enjoy your insults sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

hmmmm..... maybe i can after all, but thats not how i meant it.

i wasnt trying to make a parallel with nazis.

My god.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

why waste effort studying a made up book? to avoid your insults? i wouldnt want to do that, i enjoy your insults sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

Sheesh.

Tell me, have you ever read Euripides or Homer?

 

[Perfect Circle]

Er ... no. :banghead3

Eye opening...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

why waste effort studying a made up book?

Why waste effort asking ignorant questions about something you have no desire to study?

 

[Perfect Circle]

Now, thinking carefully, how many people can you prove that Joshua killed, and what exactly is the makeup of their group?

There are two ways to approach this - historically and mythologically - and they overlap. That is, historical facts - inasmuchas we can determine them from historical sources like archaeology and epigraphy - helps us to determine the qualities of the myth.

Thanks for toning the animosity down a bit.:rainbow1:

Most likely, Joshua never killed anyone because he's a mythological figure. The conquest of canaan is most likely a collection of battle stories stitched together to form a cohesive narrative that helped to establish a national identity for the israelites.

However, as far as the scripture is concerned, God ordered a genocide. Granted, killing on the level that we know it today didn't exist like that back then. But the author obviously wants to convey the point that God wanted nothing left alive. No trace of the previous culture. And even though that did not happen in reality, it did within the narrative.

I think I'm in a good position to understand where Christians (and possibly all abrahamic religions) get their concept of God from, seeing as how I was raised within both the Catholic and Protestant church. Now to someone obviously well versed in biblical history and archaeology, you can look at these stories with the benefit of knowing the context they were written in. But the vast majority of the religion's followers don't.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Why waste effort asking ignorant questions about something you have no desire to study?

Why come to a religious education forum to make condescending remarks to someone who was just asking a question?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

However, as far as the scripture is concerned, God ordered a genocide. Granted, killing on the level that we know it today didn't exist like that back then. But the author obviously wants to convey the point that God wanted nothing left alive.

Actually, that is not the point being conveyed - if the author wished to convey the sense of an all-powerful god wiping out an enemy culture, he would not have this culture reasserting itself, often within pages of the 'genocide'

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why come to a religious education forum to make condescending remarks to someone who was just asking a question?

Because there is a difference between "just asking a question" and exercising agenda-driven rhetorical deceit.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Actually, that is not the point being conveyed - if the author wished to convey the sense of an all-powerful god wiping out an enemy culture, he would not have this culture reasserting itself, often within pages of the 'genocide'

If we're going to argue the semantics of the word 'genocide', I believe I already defined it as the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

That is exactly what the author is trying to convey.

 

[Willamena]

Most likely, Joshua never killed anyone because he's a mythological figure...

However, as far as the scripture is concerned, God ordered a genocide... But the author obviously wants to convey the point that God wanted nothing left alive.

Did you catch post #36 in this thread?

Just curious.

 

[Caladan]

Totally agree. It's almost certainly false. I just don't understand why that makes a difference. Even if it's a myth, and none of it actually took place... Shouldn't a student of the religion still take it as insight into God's character? The same way that modern liberal Christians aren't concerned with the details of the new testament and conflicting accounts within the gospels, but with the message of peace and compassion that Jesus taught.

I find it hard to put the finger on members of the Christian faith who frequent this forum (or outside RF) who would see genocide as a desire which springs out of God's character.

The problem several members (including myself) pose in this and other threads, is that we desire a more coherent (and hopefully sophisticated) debate and discussion of scriptural (and religious) matters.