Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[Perfect Circle]

Because there is a difference between "just asking a question" and exercising agenda-driven rhetorical deceit.

Yes. Agenda driven.. It all makes sense now. Morris is obviously part of a group of people who are curious about how other people on a religious forum interpret a story that he interprets as genocide. How dare he...

 

[Perfect Circle]

I find it hard to put the finger on members of the Christian faith who frequent this forum (or outside RF) who would see genocide as a desire which springs out of God's character.

The problem several members (including myself) pose in this and other threads, is that we desire a more coherent (and hopefully sophisticated) debate and discussion of scriptural (and religious) matters.

I apologize if I came across like that.
Also, I admit that the wording in the OP was provocative, but the I'm genuinely interested in the basic question. Why did God order the systematic destruction of a people?

 

[Willamena]

Why did God order the systematic destruction of a people?

It's a story element. To think that it's what the story is about would, it would seem, according to responses earlier in this thread, miss the point.

 

[Clover]

I would never advocate Genocide, no matter what told me to. I do not believe anyone should be allowed to do it, but we cannot stop everyone from doing what they want, so we can only enforce the justice system of our individual nation's.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I apologize if I came across like that.
Also, I admit that the wording in the OP was provocative, but the I'm genuinely interested in the basic question. Why did God order the systematic destruction of a people?

Maybe the Israelites were continually pestered by other idol worshipping tribes that attributed their victories to their gods, and the Israelites both imaginatively vented their frustrations in their myths, aggrandized their victories, and exaggerated their defeats in mythological terminology.

Just a guess.

 

[Perfect Circle]

It's a story element. To think that it's what the story is about would, it would seem, according to responses earlier in this thread, miss the point.

Thanks for responding to my question without making me feel like I'm evil for asking it.:bow:

Would you care to elaborate as to what the point that I'm missing is? All I can see in these stories is that God promised a canaan to the israelites, and made good on his promise through systematic destruction of a people?

 

[Caladan]

I apologize if I came across like that.

I'm projecting on the general trend, not anyone specifically.
It's simply that RF has a community that can generate great debates, and members of all our religions here, do not exactly fit the profile of people who will participate in genocide for whatever reasons.

Also, I admit that the wording in the OP was provocative, but the I'm genuinely interested in the basic question. Why did God order the systematic destruction of a people?

He did'nt. if we really want to get down to business and understand the scriptures, we owe it to ourselves to understand the ideology, historicity and other factors behind the text.

Sure, we can rip off any text of any scripture which frame any religion which upholds said scripture... and then what?
should we then be defensive as atheists, when people tell us that we are responsible for Tiananmen Square?

 

[Mr Cheese]

God knows everyone with vowels in their names in anceitn times were sinners.

Thus genocide was good.

As a Gnostic of course we would consider these actions to be of the Demi Urge, who can be thought of as akin to a spoilt child or the "ego" of God....

"God gone wild"....

 

[Perfect Circle]

Maybe the Israelites were continually pestered by other idol worshipping tribes that attributed their victories to their gods, and the Israelites both imaginatively vented their frustrations in their myths, aggrandized their victories, and exaggerated their defeats in mythological terminology.

Just a guess.

A good one too.

 

[Willamena]

Would you care to elaborate as to what the point that I'm missing is?

Not terribly. I probably know as little as you appear to about the Bible. But I think that's part of the point others were making --if you don't know what it's about, don't presume to know.

All I can see in these stories is that God promised a canaan to the israelites, and made good on his promise through systematic destruction of a people?

Yes, I believe that's called "taking it literally".

 

[Perfect Circle]

I'm projecting on the general trend, not anyone specifically.
It's simply that RF has a community that can generate great debates, and members of all our religions here, do not exactly fit the profile of people who will participate in genocide for whatever reasons.


He did'nt. if we really want to get down to business and understand the scriptures, we owe it to ourselves to understand the ideology, historicity and other factors behind the text.

Sure, we can rip off any text of any scripture which frame any religion which upholds said scripture... and then what?
should we then be defensive as atheists, when people tell us that we are responsible for Tiananmen Square?

Point taken. But, for the record, I'm not trying to target any one religious group. I'm simply taking the scriptures at face value, as any layman would, and questioning the actions of a supposedly just god in a given circumstance.

 

[painted wolf]

Are you really taking it at face value? Or are you reading into it what you want to see?

wa:do

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why did God order the systematic destruction of a people?

The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!"
Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head:
Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace,
Canaan is captive with all woe.
Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,
Yanoam made nonexistent;
Israel is wasted, bare of seed,
Khor is become a widow for Egypt.
All who roamed have been subdued.
By the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat,
Given life like Re every day.​

Stories evolve. It is likely that stories of victory over Canaanite tribes evolved and merged over generations of oral transmission, eventually become relatively stable elements of the people's folklore, folk history. Some were allowed to drift. Some were retroactively imbued with religious (or new etiological) import. The 'genocide' was not the story but, rather, the context. Rendering one's enemy "nonexistent, ... wasted, bare of seed" was simply the accepted bombast of the day. The story was all about why it was done, and the whys are laced with transcendent themes.

God is injected into national[istic] lore in an effort to sanctify the profane, to transmute lore into lesson. The effort was uneven and never free of perspective. The Priests had an agenda, as did the Deuteronomists. Postexilic redactors faced a Levant much different from the one they left. One can easily step through the Tanakh and find much to ridicule. Or one can see the aggregate as the evolving narrative of a people seeking to understand what a covenant with holiness entails. One can childishly complain about God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, or one can embrace a theology that applauds the 'fact' that Abraham argued with God ...

... or one can contemptuously ask: "why waste effort studying a made up book?"

 

[Perfect Circle]

Are you really taking it at face value? Or are you reading into it what you want to see?

wa:do

At face value, what does...

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon."

... mean to you?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm simply taking the scriptures at face value, as any layman would, ...

And that is inordinantly stupid. The narrative was not fashioned for the 21 century layman.

 

[Perfect Circle]

The princes are prostrate saying: "Shalom!"
Not one of the Nine Bows lifts his head:
Tjehenu is vanquished, Khatti at peace,
Canaan is captive with all woe.
Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,
Yanoam made nonexistent;
Israel is wasted, bare of seed,
Khor is become a widow for Egypt.
All who roamed have been subdued.
By the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Banere-meramun,
Son of Re, Merneptah, Content with Maat,
Given life like Re every day.​

Stories evolve. It is likely that stories of victory over Canaanite tribes evolved and merged over generations of oral transmission, eventually become relatively stable elements of the people's folklore, folk history. Some were allowed to drift. Some were retroactively imbued with religious (or new etiological) import. The 'genocide' was not the story but, rather, the context. Rendering one's enemy "nonexistent, ... wasted, bare of seed" was simply the accepted bombast of the day. The story was all about why it was done, and the whys are laced with transcendent themes.

God is injected into national[istic] lore in an effort to sanctify the profane, to transmute lore into lesson. The effort was uneven and never free of perspective. The Priests had an agenda, as did the Deuteronomists. Postexilic redactors faced a Levant much different from the one they left. One can easily step through the Tanakh and find much to ridicule. Or one can see the aggregate as the evolving narrative of a people seeking to understand what a covenant with holiness entails. One can childishly complain about God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, or one can embrace a theology that applauds the 'fact' that Abraham argued with God ...

... or one can contemptuously ask: "why waste effort studying a made up book?"

I appreciate the legitimate response soule. I see your point and tbh, I think I'm targetting a more literalist audience. I'm usually surrounded by one...

 

[painted wolf]

At face value, what does...

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon."

... mean to you?

The chest thumping patriotic myth that most nations are founded on...
Our little band of poorly trained soldiers... thanks to the grace of god and our just cause... defeated a superior enemy who was on the side of injustice and whatever...

Seems like a familiar theme to me.

wa:do

 

[Perfect Circle]

And that is inordinantly stupid. The narrative was not fashioned for the 21 century layman.

Was it fashioned for the inordinantly rude?

 

[Willamena]

Was it fashioned for the inordinantly rude?

Or brutally honest, if you go by some other threads. *grin*

 

[fantome profane]

I'm simply taking the scriptures at face value, as any layman would,

That is your choice, but speaking as a layman I don’t take these stories literally or at face value. Actually I don’t take anything at face value, whether it is holy scripture, a newspaper article, a political speech, a television ad, or even a post on an internet message board. You always have to take into account the motive of the person giving you the information, what is their bias?, are they exaggerating or understating?, what is the point they are really trying to get across? etc.

And you don’t have to be a talmudic scholar to consider these things (although in some cases it is a good idea to consult one).