Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?

[A Vestigial Mote]

body, mind and heart

the body will fail

Agreed that the body will fail. From my perspective, what you're referring to as "mind" uses the physical brain for support - without it, it also fails. And the heart? It's a muscle. What you're trying to attribute to the heart is your emotion, empathy, compassion, etc. - which I believe are part of the mind, and therefore also completely rely on the physical brain.

But, per usual, your response doesn't even actually address what I said - you just went directly into spiritual mumbo-jumbo that got triggered in your mind when you read my post.

What I said was this: All of the problems you have with the idea of "nothingness" beyond death are likely a result of one or two attributes of your mind:

1. ego - not wanting to admit that the universe can actually get along just fine without you.
2. emotion - not wanting to accept that those around you that you love are just going to disappear or that they have to suffer through #1 (damaged ego) themselves.

And when you claim that God has provided a solution to the problem of humans facing nothingness after death, you are, indeed, claiming that God cares enough about points 1 and 2 above to actually have done so. Because (bear with me, and let's face reality here for just a second), there is no objective "bad" to any of us simply not existing anymore. That is a state of existence that the universe would simply march on through just fine. The only "problems", therefore, are the ones YOU personally have with the idea - unless "God" also shares those same problems!

 

[Nakosis]

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Comments?

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

God is a fictional character. There's no reality to base God on, there's only the fictional concept folks develop in their mind.

Being a fictional character, God can have as much mystery or as little as you want. Though I suppose since most are not consciously aware of creating God, it's likely more mystery than not.

For conviction you just ignore the mystery, accept the mystery of whatever God is in your head and insist on the reality of whatever concept of God might be bouncing around in your head.

 

[godnotgod]

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"
from Zen

You are That, pretending you are not That, in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek. But as long as you hold God to be an object in a subject/object split, you will forever seek God and never find. You are the very thing that is prompting you to seek. Tat tvam asi.

"The spiritual experience is the merging of the observer, the observed, and the entire process of observation into a single Reality"
Deepak Chopra

If you ever get beyond the first stage of meditation, you will notice that it is not you who are controlling your breath. Something is breathing you. Pay attention and let go all thoughts of 'I' and self.

If you are still thinking 'God' or 'not-God', you are in the realm of duality; in the state of a subject/object split, and round and round you go.

"Think neither god, nor not-god"
Buddha

All efforts to conceptualize about God are efforts to encapsulate God, but the nature of The Infinite cannot be encapsulated by the finite mind.

 

[godnotgod]

Baby fish: "Momma, all my friends at school keep talking about The Sea. What is 'The Sea'?
Momma fish: "Why baby, you were born into The Sea and will die in The Sea. The Sea is all around you and inside of you"
Baby fish: (looking all around) "I don't see any Sea! It just doesn't exist!...*sigh*"

 

[dfnj]

RE: "Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?"

Yes, God is a mystery that will never be solved by physical evidence. No, God is NOT a mystery and WILL BE solved by people having faith in certain ideas about God.

Nobody denies the existence of "apples". We look at it and say "apple". But you can't walk over to God and shake his hand. Most religions say you have to die first to meet God. That's a but of rub in trying to prove He exists. Regardless, God is just a word. Nobody denies the existence of the word God. God exists in our mind-space. Is it right, is it wrong, is it good, is it bad for God to only exist in mind-space, who knows????

 

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Certainly, for some very popular conceptions of god.

Comments?

I think raising god to the level of mystery is somewhat unadvisable, and accepting the vagueness of the term and the limitations that it imposes on its usefulness is considerably healthier.

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

Definitely. If nothing else, it helps resisting some of the dangers of being certain about that concept.

Embrancing ignosticsm and perhaps apatheism is far better still, IMO.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Okay, so as above:

you have a billion$ of Trump's money to bet

red= atheism

black = God.

anything you don't bet goes back to him to fund his evil cat juggling houses


How do you split your bet?

50/50?

You don't have the slightest leaning either way whatsoever?

What I said was "I acknowledge every logical possibility, although I don't consider them all equally likely." Yes, I do lean one way or the other on some of these.

Atheism versus God? Atheists don't typically have a position on any god or gods except perhaps the ones that are logically impossible in the sense that the married bachelor is. If you propose a god that has mutually exclusive qualities at the same time, I'll not merely fail to accept claims about that god existing as I have with all other gods, but I'll add that the god you describe doesn't exist. That is, I am an agnostic atheist regarding god claims in general, but a gnostic (hard) atheist regarding the impossible ones.

I can also rule out gods that it is said are omniscient, omnipotent, and want to be known.

Otherwise, my position is that I don't accept the claim of gods, but also do not call them ruled out or impossible.

I'd like to give an answer to your question that acknowledges its implications, but since I can't begin to estimate the likelihood of the existence of a god or gods that either do not want to be known or are unable to manifest in the universe, how could I decide the relative likelihood of the existence of such a thing?

And that's what I'd need to be able to do to effectively place a bet. Absent that, it's a wild guess.

If the bet was on a specific god, I'd bet against it. Even if there is a god or gods, the odds of the one you call "God" being it are low just because there are so many others that have to be wrong for that one to be right. And I agree, that doesn't answer your question.

Nor would saying that I would bet half on each so that I would get my billion back (less the vigorish) either way.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What I said was "I acknowledge every logical possibility, although I don't consider them all equally likely." Yes, I do lean one way or the other on some of these.

Atheism versus God? Atheists don't typically have a position on any god or gods except perhaps the ones that are logically impossible in the sense that the married bachelor is. If you propose a god that has mutually exclusive qualities at the same time, I'll not merely fail to accept claims about that god existing as I have with all other gods, but I'll add that the god you describe doesn't exist. That is, I am an agnostic atheist regarding god claims in general, but a gnostic (hard) atheist regarding the impossible ones.

I can also rule out gods that it is said are omniscient, omnipotent, and want to be known.

Otherwise, my position is that I don't accept the claim of gods, but also do not call them ruled out or impossible.

I'd like to give an answer to your question that acknowledges its implications, but since I can't begin to estimate the likelihood of the existence of a god or gods that either do not want to be known or are unable to manifest in the universe, how could I decide the relative likelihood of the existence of such a thing?

And that's what I'd need to be able to do to effectively place a bet. Absent that, it's a wild guess.

If the bet was on a specific god, I'd bet against it. Even if there is a god or gods, the odds of the one you call "God" being it are low just because there are so many others that have to be wrong for that one to be right. And I agree, that doesn't answer your question.

Nor would saying that I would bet half on each so that I would get my billion back (less the vigorish) either way.

Natural mechanism = any natural mechanism

God= any creator God/ intelligent agent

None of us can calculate the odds, we are taking our best guess here right?, I certainly acknowledge belief, faith, that I could be wrong..

So In this analogy- anything you do not bet is burned-

anything you win goes to your favorite charity.


So by what you said, you would put at least something on God, right? but most on natural mechanism- so how much about? 90%? am I way off?

Or are you saying you'd rather avoid the bet entirely, let the money be burned, rather than violating the tenets of atheism and actually admitting a positive assertion?

 

[dfnj]

So by what you said, you would put at least something on God, right? but most on natural mechanism- so how much about? 90%? am I way off?

Or are you saying you'd rather avoid the bet entirely, let the money be burned, rather than violating the tenets of atheism and actually admitting a positive assertion?

Atheism does not have tenets. Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is nothing. Atheism is just not having a belief in god or gods. That's it. Nothing is NOT a religion.

I don't believe in the wager because I don't accept the premise of burning. My faith is in a God of unconditional love. Burning in Hell for all eternity is cruel and unusual punishment for finite crimes and is certainly immoral. And it's not like anyone Hitler killed is not in Heaven experience eternal heavenly bliss. A God of love would not torture anyone. If anything, God would use His omnipotent powers to rehabilitate the sinful to be the way He wants them to be so they can join the ranks in Heaven. Who would be able to resist God fixing them?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Comments?

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

To be honest, god doesn't seem like much of a mystery. On the other hand, its invention seems inevitable given the vagaries of human nature and perception.

 

[Enoch07]

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Comments?

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

As far as the God of Abraham.

I don't think we could ever fully understand God in flesh bodies.

Bonus question: Yes

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Atheism does not have tenets. Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is nothing. Atheism is just not having a belief in god or gods. That's it. Nothing is NOT a religion.

^ that's my point exactly, it demands this complete refusal to admit any positive assertion- inherent in the name.

I can do the same

As an a-materialist, I make no assertion, I simply lack belief in any materialistic explanation for the universe (and default to the obvious alternative meanwhile)

see? works just as well. But re-labeling my belief as a disbelief of the alternative... doesn't change anything does it? , it's just a way to avoid making a positive assertion- why would you want to do that?

Obviously theists do not do this, because they are willing and able to defend their belief on it's own merits

I don't believe in the wager because I don't accept the premise of burning. My faith is in a God of unconditional love. Burning in Hell for all eternity is cruel and unusual punishment for finite crimes and is certainly immoral. And it's not like anyone Hitler killed is not in Heaven experience eternal heavenly bliss. A God of love would not torture anyone. If anything, God would use His omnipotent powers to rehabilitate the sinful to be the way He wants them to be so they can join the ranks in Heaven. Who would be able to resist God fixing them?

So you would also go as far as to let the money be destroyed, rather than admit the positive assertion? A billion dollars that could go, if you are correct, to a worthy cause?

That's dedication!


We certainly agree on rehabilitation

Luke 15:7 there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

 

[Jumi]

As an a-materialist, I make no assertion, I simply lack belief in any materialistic explanation for the universe (and default to the obvious alternative meanwhile)

Materialism or actually multiple types of materialisms are all philosophical points of view. So are their opposites. There isn't an obvious alternative. There are multiple alternatives. One being that you don't hold any belief in the topic. If you believe in another theory, why not identify by it instead?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Materialism or actually multiple types of materialisms are all philosophical points of view. So are their opposites. There isn't an obvious alternative. There are multiple alternatives. One being that you don't hold any belief in the topic. If you believe in another theory, why not identify by it instead?

Okay, so I don't believe in materialism, naturalism, call it what you will, any sort of spontaneous/ unintelligent mechanism creating the universe and life, I merely lack belief in such things.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Is there a book of quotes available?

If you are asking about Einstein ... not sure - but here is a few -

Albert Einstein Quotes (Author of Relativity)

Enjoy!

 

[whirlingmerc]

In my estimation, for epistemic reasons, humans cannot solve the Great Mystery...although as you say, I'm sure many will try.

The benefit of uncertainty as to the existence/nonexistence of God is that if one is provisional with their speculations, and questioning themselves about their assumptions and their actual level of knowledge, one will be less likely to decide to kill or dispossess other people because they don't agree with your understanding of the Great Mystery.

There may be other benefits...as well as costs...to accepting uncertainty.

The power and glory of God is baked in to creation and people have to exert effort to deny it - so claims the start of the book of Romans.

A complete picture requires God to reveal Himself and He shows people Himself various ways
God made the eye, the mouth the ear. God can communicate as He desires and not as He desires

Psalms book 1: David's first book of Psalms

 

[Thief]

Agreed that the body will fail. From my perspective, what you're referring to as "mind" uses the physical brain for support - without it, it also fails. And the heart? It's a muscle. What you're trying to attribute to the heart is your emotion, empathy, compassion, etc. - which I believe are part of the mind, and therefore also completely rely on the physical brain.

But, per usual, your response doesn't even actually address what I said - you just went directly into spiritual mumbo-jumbo that got triggered in your mind when you read my post.

What I said was this: All of the problems you have with the idea of "nothingness" beyond death are likely a result of one or two attributes of your mind:

1. ego - not wanting to admit that the universe can actually get along just fine without you.
2. emotion - not wanting to accept that those around you that you love are just going to disappear or that they have to suffer through #1 (damaged ego) themselves.

And when you claim that God has provided a solution to the problem of humans facing nothingness after death, you are, indeed, claiming that God cares enough about points 1 and 2 above to actually have done so. Because (bear with me, and let's face reality here for just a second), there is no objective "bad" to any of us simply not existing anymore. That is a state of existence that the universe would simply march on through just fine. The only "problems", therefore, are the ones YOU personally have with the idea - unless "God" also shares those same problems!

not much point in generating 7billion copies of a learning device......
only to have each one fail....altogether

what?....no afterlife?
not a chance?
not one in billions?

Mind and heart (yes of course.....emotion)
with the potential to continue


but some won't

 

[godnotgod]

RE: "Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?"

Yes, God is a mystery that will never be solved by physical evidence. No, God is NOT a mystery and WILL BE solved by people having faith in certain ideas about God.

Nobody denies the existence of "apples". We look at it and say "apple". But you can't walk over to God and shake his hand. Most religions say you have to die first to meet God. That's a but of rub in trying to prove He exists. Regardless, God is just a word. Nobody denies the existence of the word God. God exists in our mind-space. Is it right, is it wrong, is it good, is it bad for God to only exist in mind-space, who knows????

The God of the mind-space is the conceptual God. One must transcend the conceptual mind, which is forever trying to box God in to some rational 'sensible' explanation which never comes.

God neither exists, nor not-exists, as God is beyond all dualities. Things exist in Time and Space, but God is beyond Time and Space. Instead, God is Pure Being, which is not dependent upon Time, Space, or Causation. It is the thinking mind that is blocking access.

"Yoga [ie divine union] is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
Yoga Sutras, Patanjali

It is not possible to explain what God is in positive terms; it is only possible to tell what God is in negative terms, ie; what God is not.

'neti, neti'; 'not this, not that'

 

[Jumi]

Okay, so I don't believe in materialism, naturalism, call it what you will, any sort of spontaneous/ unintelligent mechanism creating the universe and life, I merely lack belief in such things.

So you don't have belief in an opposite? I seriously doubt what you write here.

 

[godnotgod]

not much point in generating 7billion copies of a learning device......
only to have each one fail....altogether

what?....no afterlife?
not a chance?
not one in billions?

Mind and heart (yes of course.....emotion)
with the potential to continue

but some won't

Why would anyone want to contaminate the future with the past by bringing their tired old baggage with them into their new spiritual life? It won't fit.