Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?

[HeatherAnn]

For epistemic reasons, there's very little you can say with certainly about god -- although that fact does not satisfy many people, so they simply assert certainty without adequate grounds for it.

I agree partly. The nature of God is like love or beauty, subjectively realized. So, yes, you cannot state what you see as God or Love as certain/universal but you do have adequate grounds to assert what your personal experience has been.

 

[HeatherAnn]

Since anyone who is "certain" about god (either existence or non-existence) is lying to themselves and others, the biggest benefit of being "uncertain" is not being self-deceptive.

Well put. Paul Tillech defined god as one’s “ultimate concern,” and suggested the best ultimate concern has the least idolatrous elements. Sounds easy, but we’re kind of back to the question of what is the highest ultimate concern - the highest GOoD? It’s not certain, because one moment it may mean rest, another working hard... hugging and another confronting... caring for self one moment and then caring for another. And it all is sought based on trial and error - active faith - not certainty.

This is why I kind of cringe when I hear people bare testimony in my church by, “I know...” things they really haven’t even begun to explore. Ironically a leader of this church once said, “An egotist will never get anywhere in this world because he thinks he’s already arrived.” By thinking they “know” they kind of damn themselves- hold themselves back - from learning more.

 

[HeatherAnn]

The atheist position is very easy to defend and argue. A automaton could do it. If you really want a challenge try arguing in favor of the theist position. That's the challenge!

No, the Atheist position is most illogical. Then Theist, & Agnostic is most strictly logical. But a mix of Agnosticism & taking the spirit of Theism (not letter of the law) is the best intuitively & practically. (Fowler’s faith stages: Theists stage 3, Agnostic 4 & a mix of logic & intuition stage 5. Chart of James Fowler's Stages of Faith | psychologycharts.com )

Atheism is illogical because:

1) The word itself means “without theism” & many illogically claim they don’t claim anything yet there are countless books (theology) on Atheism and “how to be an independent thinker” lol.

2) Too many definitions of God to even know, some have spent their lives trying to understand. Yet Atheists dismiss it all on blind faith, haven’t even bothered to learn about what they so confidently deny. Some definitions cannot be proven or denied (like God is truth, love... the experience of God is within you). Yet Atheists again deny what they are clueless about.

3) This one only applies to those obsessed with Atheism, but is hilariously ironic! Paul Tillech defined god as “one’s ultimate concern” so when Atheists make arguing Atheism their obsession, they are proving and showing their god they worship.

 

[Thief]

Why would anyone want to contaminate the future with the past by bringing their tired old baggage with them into their new spiritual life? It won't fit.

so who said baggage was allowed?

a rich man came to the Gate with heavy bags in both hands
and Peter said.....Sorry, no baggage allowed

Oh! but I know your Boss....it's ok
Go ask Him

Peter complied and went asking

When he returned, he said to the rich man.....
I need to see what's in the bags
and Peter took a look and....Ok!....like you said

the rich passed by load in hand

an angel was close by watching
he came asking Peter.....what's up with that?
a rich man!.....thru the gates.....with baggage!!!!!!!

Yeah, said Peter.....
and who would bring their own paving bricks!!!!!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

but some won't

Count me out then. Considering what I have experienced of the company I'd be keeping if I were one of the ones who "got in," oblivion would be a welcome alternative.

 

[dfnj]

No, the Atheist position is most illogical. Then Theist, & Agnostic is most strictly logical. But a mix of Agnosticism & taking the spirit of Theism (not letter of the law) is the best intuitively & practically. (Fowler’s faith stages: Theists stage 3, Agnostic 4 & a mix of logic & intuition stage 5. Chart of James Fowler's Stages of Faith | psychologycharts.com )

Atheism is illogical because:

1) The word itself means “without theism” & many illogically claim they don’t claim anything yet there are countless books (theology) on Atheism and “how to be an independent thinker” lol.

As a theist, you are going to make me argue the atheist position. Okay, here it goes.

The word atheist and atheism was not picked by atheists. The word you use or sequence of letters means nothing. Here is the atheist position explain:

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

What is Atheism? | American Atheists

Theists do not get to decide what atheism means. Atheism is simply having no belief in god or gods. It is not a religion. It is nothing. The absence of something is nothing.

So how can the absence of something be illogical. It is the most logical position there is because there is NOTHING to criticize.

Atheists are generally very smart people. Most people know you can't prove a negative. Most atheists do not actively deny the existence of God because at some future date there may be very good evidence for God's existence. It is just right now most atheists agree there is a complete lack of evidence for God's existence.

2) Too many definitions of God to even know, some have spent their lives trying to understand. Yet Atheists dismiss it all on blind faith, haven’t even bothered to learn about what they so confidently deny. Some definitions cannot be proven or denied (like God is truth, love... the experience of God is within you). Yet Atheists again deny what they are clueless about.

Nobody denies the existence of "apples". I hold one in my hand and we both look at and we experience "apple". You have to admit you cannot take me by the hand bring me over to an old man sitting in a chair and say, "here, shake the hand of God." You just can't.

There are many theists who believe ALL of existence is proof of God's existence. Atheists generally do not accept all of existence as evidence for God's existence.

Some theists will say a certain sequence of their own personal experiences is proof for the existence of God. And again, generally, most atheists do not accept non-shared experiences as proof for the existence of God.

Again, in all of this, nobody is denying the existence of God. It's all about the qualifying evidence.

3) This one only applies to those obsessed with Atheism, but is hilariously ironic! Paul Tillech defined god as “one’s ultimate concern” so when Atheists make arguing Atheism their obsession, they are proving and showing their god they worship.

This argument goes both ways. I think when theist say anything at all about atheism it is showing a lack of a faith in their own beliefs. Why do you care what atheists think? The Japanese have a saying, "the first person to raise their voice in an argument loses." I think saying anything at all to atheists is like raising your voice.

Trying to disprove evolution is another example of theists demonstrating a lack of faith in their own beliefs. An omnipotent God can create the Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating and fossil record evidence. To complain or argue about evolution just means a theist doesn't believe God is omnipotent.

I don't think atheists are obsessed with god as much as they are sick and tired of certain groups of theists claiming superiority.

But I will concede there are some atheists who come close to denying God's existence by the following argument. Over the past 200 years science has shown countless religious beliefs and rituals to be silly superstitions. Science has been amazingly effective is understanding how nature behaves. And nature is relentless in carrying out the laws of physics exactly as they are supposed to be carried out. It does not take much imagination by the atheists to interpolate these results to conclude ALL of religion is silly superstition. And you have to admit, when was the last time you saw God step in and actively stop some unnecessary act of evil either done by man or done by nature? When has God policed man's behavior by bellowing His voice from the clouds telling someone how to behave properly. As far as I can tell, based on my experiences, everything that happens is 100% mundane laws of physics without any supernatural causes. If anything, based on how successful science has been in disproving countless silly superstitious, it is very unlikely God really exists and is most likely just another silly superstition.

Now just because there is no evidence for God's existence doesn't mean anything. When you have faith in God you do not need evidence. Yes, it may all be imaginary BS but who cares what the atheists think.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

No, the Atheist position is most illogical. Then Theist, & Agnostic is most strictly logical. But a mix of Agnosticism & taking the spirit of Theism (not letter of the law) is the best intuitively & practically. (Fowler’s faith stages: Theists stage 3, Agnostic 4 & a mix of logic & intuition stage 5. Chart of James Fowler's Stages of Faith | psychologycharts.com )

Atheism is illogical because:

1) The word itself means “without theism” & many illogically claim they don’t claim anything yet there are countless books (theology) on Atheism and “how to be an independent thinker” lol.

2) Too many definitions of God to even know, some have spent their lives trying to understand. Yet Atheists dismiss it all on blind faith, haven’t even bothered to learn about what they so confidently deny. Some definitions cannot be proven or denied (like God is truth, love... the experience of God is within you). Yet Atheists again deny what they are clueless about.

3) This one only applies to those obsessed with Atheism, but is hilariously ironic! Paul Tillech defined god as “one’s ultimate concern” so when Atheists make arguing Atheism their obsession, they are proving and showing their god they worship.

I disagree with you that theism is more logical than atheism. Though I am agnostic myself, I tend to agree that claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Are you saying that people who dismiss the existence of Zeus, Thor, Odin, et. al are also illogical, or is it just those who dismiss the existence of Yahweh? Because it seems like special pleading to me to assert confidently that out of the thousands of "gods" that mankind has worshipped, *all* of them are imaginary, except just this one that the Hebrews happened to worship. He's real, but the rest are not. Never mind that he's invisible and intangible, and indistinguishable from the imaginary just like the others. Strange way of thinking IMO.

 

[godnotgod]

so who said baggage was allowed?

a rich man came to the Gate with heavy bags in both hands
and Peter said.....Sorry, no baggage allowed

Oh! but I know your Boss....it's ok
Go ask Him

Peter complied and went asking

When he returned, he said to the rich man.....
I need to see what's in the bags
and Peter took a look and....Ok!....like you said

the rich passed by load in hand

an angel was close by watching
he came asking Peter.....what's up with that?
a rich man!.....thru the gates.....with baggage!!!!!!!

Yeah, said Peter.....
and who would bring their own paving bricks!!!!!

No, I did not mean material baggage, but the baggage known as 'Identity', which is who we think we are in this ordinary earthly life. All characteristics we are attached to in this life that we identify with as being 'I' have no meaning in the 'afterlife'. 'I' itself is baggage.

The actor, when done with the character he portrays in a play, does not continue to play that character when the play is over.

As in a play, the character we play in earthly life is not real, so who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So you don't have belief in an opposite? I seriously doubt what you write here.

^ that would be my point yes-

'I don't claim it's heads, I just refuse to believe it's tails'

it's just a way of trying to avoid making a positive assertion- why do a-theists like to do this.?.. is the question

 

[HeatherAnn]

The word you use or sequence of letters means nothing.

Of course words and root words have meaning!

Atheism is simply having no belief in god or gods. It is not a religion. It is nothing. The absence of something is nothing.

If it were nothing, there would be no name for it. Or maybe it'd be called the "void."
Also, if Atheism were really nothing, there would NOT be almost 10,000,000 responses when I search online for "Atheism."
Such an argument that the herd mentality, Atheism, has no beliefs, is absurdly ridiculous but a common attempt to avoid realizing how illogical Atheism is.

Nobody denies the existence of "apples". I hold one in my hand and we both look at and we experience "apple". You have to admit you cannot take me by the hand bring me over to an old man sitting in a chair and say, "here, shake the hand of God." You just can't.

For a similar reason why I can't take you by the hand and say, "Here, shake Love's hand."
"God is love." God is experienced within. Haven't you heard of the idea, "If you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him"? - A bit extreme but the point is that if anyone pretends that God is something outside of you, it's deception, so don't believe it. Jesus said similarly, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there, for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Why do you care what atheists think?

AKA: Why do you care about others?
I care because what others think & feel motivates them to act, which affects me or others. It's "smart selfishness."
And I enjoy relating well with others so naturally, I'd like to educate and persuade others to see things similarly as I do.
"All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith." It's so refreshing when I come across someone who gets that. Then, we have the possibility of exploring more together and helping each other. I like when people realize their own subjectivity and lack of omniscience just as I also appreciate when others acknowledge truth wherever it's found - even if scientific facts contradict their political or religious ideologies. People who don't get that seem to scream, "I need help! Please educate me!"

 

[HeatherAnn]

I disagree with you that theism is more logical than atheism.

Yeah, I could see how you'd think that. If you were to compare a more moderate Atheist (leaning Agnostic) with an extreme fanatical Theist - definitely. But generally - just the ideologies - I'd say that Atheism is more illogical mostly because it's a herd mentality that is all about rejecting Theist herd mentality. Without Theism, Atheism IS nothing. How pathetic to have a belief system based on denying another's belief system. Talk about no back-bone! And Theism, as I see it now, is like Star Wars - good messages but not meant to be taken literally. Scripture even says about Jesus: "Without a parable, spake he not unto them."

Though I am agnostic myself, I tend to agree that claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Are you saying that people who dismiss the existence of Zeus, Thor, Odin, et. al are also illogical, or is it just those who dismiss the existence of Yahweh? Because it seems like special pleading to me to assert confidently that out of the thousands of "gods" that mankind has worshipped, *all* of them are imaginary, except just this one that the Hebrews happened to worship. He's real, but the rest are not. Never mind that he's invisible and intangible, and indistinguishable from the imaginary just like the others. Strange way of thinking IMO.

You make an excellent point about partiality to gods - for 2 reasons...

1) There are so so so many gods! So many definitions of gods! Who's to say one is better than the other? Well, actually, we (all including Atheists & Agnostics) have been cultivated to believe in the Abrahamic God because whether some want to admit it or not, laws like, "Thou shalt not kill" did not just come out of thin air. Still, if you're going to believe in some spiritual realm, it is a bit egotistically ignor-ant to claim to know exactly what objective truth/God is all about.

2) No 2 people define subjective terms like beauty, love and God the same. In fact, in a way, it is idolatry for someone to blindly believe in another person's ideas of God without seeking to understand or experience God themselves personally.

Personally, I'm intrigued by polytheistic religious ideas of gods. They seem to kind of help explain different qualities or aspects of spiritual realities. Though I also like the idea of one higher GOoD that is intuitively guides us with anything.

 

[Jumi]

^ that would be my point yes-

'I don't claim it's heads, I just refuse to believe it's tails'

That would be the case with materialism and other belief systems.

it's just a way of trying to avoid making a positive assertion- why do a-theists like to do this.?.. is the question

Because that's how it works for atheism definition wise. If you don't believe in gods or God you're an atheist. As annoying as it maybe to some there's no belief needed to not believe in gods.

I feel like you're trying to trap yourself by trying to use something that doesn't work for what you're trying to promote.

 

[dfnj]

Of course words and root words have meaning!
If it were nothing, there would be no name for it. Or maybe it'd be called the "void."

Yes, you are right. Theists are the ones who labeled it "atheism". It is nothing. It should not be named. That is exactly the point. It is the absence of belief.

Of course words and root words have meaning!
Also, if Atheism were really nothing, there would NOT be almost 10,000,000 responses when I search online for "Atheism."
Such an argument that the herd mentality, Atheism, has no beliefs, is absurdly ridiculous but a common attempt to avoid realizing how illogical Atheism is.

I provided you the link in my previous post to the American Atheist association. I think they are in a better position to define what atheism means more than you and me.

For a similar reason why I can't take you by the hand and say, "Here, shake Love's hand."
"God is love." God is experienced within. Haven't you heard of the idea, "If you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him"? - A bit extreme but the point is that if anyone pretends that God is something outside of you, it's deception, so don't believe it. Jesus said similarly, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here or lo there, for behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Everything you wrote here is an article of faith. All these quotes I share your belief. Killing the Buddha and the kingdom of God comes from within are my favorites along with the golden rule.

But from the atheist perspective, the only things that "exist" are things that can have shared experiences in reality. You are mixing subjective experiences with objective experiences. As far as the atheist is concerned, all articles of faith, all belief in God, only exists in mind-space in your imagination. There is no real evidence for the existence of God. God is just a word as far as atheists are concerned. And the existence of God only occurs in our use of words and language. But that should not be a threat to your faith!

Your faith should be much stronger than anything an atheist could say. Are you missing this point?

AKA: Why do you care about others?
I care because what others think & feel motivates them to act, which affects me or others. It's "smart selfishness."
And I enjoy relating well with others so naturally, I'd like to educate and persuade others to see things similarly as I do.
"All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith." It's so refreshing when I come across someone who gets that. Then, we have the possibility of exploring more together and helping each other. I like when people realize their own subjectivity and lack of omniscience just as I also appreciate when others acknowledge truth wherever it's found - even if scientific facts contradict their political or religious ideologies. People who don't get that seem to scream, "I need help! Please educate me!"

I like you. I like your point of view. I can see you are thinking about this very hard. You might like this video. It really disturbs me from scientific point of view. If I were an atheist, I would probably not like this video. If you are a theist, it seems to provide some evidence "idealism" is at least equal to science:

What is IT that decides which quantum state is realized is a mystery. If you were willing to accept the existence of God, you could argue without God nature would not behave at all and we are all essentially spirit rather than material essence. It's kind of a confirmation of what the mystics have been saying for centuries.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Because that's how it works for atheism definition wise. If you don't believe in gods or God you're an atheist. As annoying as it maybe to some there's no belief needed to not believe in gods.

.

Of course. definition-wise ... as an a-materialist, there's no belief needed not to believe in materialism ..

And once again, the definition does nothing whatsoever to alter the actual belief either way, it only avoids stating it, attempting to shift the burden of proof,

theists don't feel the need to use this semantic device, because there's plenty to back up the positive assertion on it's own merits!

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Personally, I'm intrigued by polytheistic religious ideas of gods. They seem to kind of help explain different qualities or aspects of spiritual realities. Though I also like the idea of one higher GOoD that is intuitively guides us with anything.

Why polytheism? If you want to believe in some intelligent force or forces guiding the universe, it makes more sense to believe in some more technologically advanced humans that created us as part of their simulation. After all, the odds that a god would create a human are low, but the odds that a human would create another human are high. Of course, I don't believe in the human simulation hypothesis anymore than Zeus. This is the problem with trying to use one's intuition in determining the origin of the universe. It leads to absurdities and we're better off just admitting we don't know.

 

[dfnj]

Personally, I'm intrigued by polytheistic religious ideas of gods. They seem to kind of help explain different qualities or aspects of spiritual realities. Though I also like the idea of one higher GOoD that is intuitively guides us with anything.

The idea of polytheistic deities is they are like Jungian Archetypes. We channel certain behaviors of certain deities or experience their favors. It all comes down to the purpose of having religion in the first place. The purpose of religion is to provide a map for how a person is to live a meaningful and moral life within the community. One or many Gods doesn't matter if the map works.

Whatever religion we have now in the World is not working. We have way too much war, military spending, dropping bombs, excessive police force, and privately owned prisons outsourcing prison labor. Some days just test my faith.

 

[Thief]

No, I did not mean material baggage, but the baggage known as 'Identity', which is who we think we are in this ordinary earthly life. All characteristics we are attached to in this life that we identify with as being 'I' have no meaning in the 'afterlife'. 'I' itself is baggage.

The actor, when done with the character he portrays in a play, does not continue to play that character when the play is over.

As in a play, the character we play in earthly life is not real, so who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

I know what you meant.....I guess you didn't get the joke

and there's not much point in creating several billion unique spirits
only to lose that quality in the next life

sure.....the peace of heaven is guarded
most of us will need to change our frame of mind

and the stubborn won't make it at all

but to the topic.....the REAL mystery is God.......
how to say ....I AM!

in the beginning

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe in the wager because I don't accept the premise of burning. My faith is in a God of unconditional love. Burning in Hell for all eternity is cruel and unusual punishment for finite crimes and is certainly immoral. And it's not like anyone Hitler killed is not in Heaven experience eternal heavenly bliss. A God of love would not torture anyone. If anything, God would use His omnipotent powers to rehabilitate the sinful to be the way He wants them to be so they can join the ranks in Heaven. Who would be able to resist God fixing them?

I love your God… I can only hope He loves me…

You are right about those that Hitler killed. It is too bad that some atheists just cannot see it that way. Instead, they blame god because god did not stop Hitler. I believe we make our own hell by what we believe and our deeds, so Hitler probably suffered as a result of his deeds, but there is always a chance to progress in the next world if we reach out to God for his mercy. Prayers of others on the behalf of the departed can also have an effect.

I do not believe that God actually *fixes* people but rather God helps them fix themselves, if they want God’s help. However, that only applies to this mortal world. The afterlife could be a whole new ball game.

For certain, I believe that God *by His mercy* can let anyone into His Heaven He darn well pleases to, because that is a Baha’i belief. It is interesting to note that a Trinitarian Christian I know quite well said he agreed with that… He said that it would *only* be by God’s mercy that I would not wind up in hell, since I am a Baha’i and not a Christian. Even though I believe in Jesus that is not good enough for most Christians; I have to believe in their Christian doctrines to be guaranteed salvation.

For certain, there is a whole lot we do not know about the afterlife and very little we do know. From what I know I think the hell described in the Bible was really a scare tactic used to make people believe in God… Even in the Qur’an we see some similar verses. We do not have those in the Baha’i Writings, although I did stumble upon a reference to hell recently. I won’t post the passage but the gist of it was that people who have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of themselves and they will send themselves to hell by disbelieving in God and rebelling against God. In this mortal life, it really is all about free will.

I have rebelled against God’s sovereignty but I have not disbelieved in God so I am hoping God will cut me a break.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is why I kind of cringe when I hear people bare testimony in my church by, “I know...” things they really haven’t even begun to explore. Ironically a leader of this church once said, “An egotist will never get anywhere in this world because he thinks he’s already arrived.” By thinking they “know” they kind of damn themselves- hold themselves back - from learning more.

I say “I know” God exists and I have gotten a lot of guff for that, even from believers. You can cringe now… Obviously I do not know in the sense of having proof, I know in the sense of having inner certitude. That means I could be wrong, but I do not think there is a snowball’s chance in hell that I am wrong, not that I believe in the Christian hell.

But I would never say I know much about God and I would never say the things some Christians say, like they know what God did… Nobody can ever know what God is did/is doing/will do, except that God appointed Messengers to represent Him every 500-1000 years… I have no idea what God does on his time off, maybe He plays golf with Trump.

But seriously, I listen to Christian radio a lot and they come on and ask “what’s God doing in your life?” Then people call in and say what God is doing in their life.I admire their faith but I do not think they can know what God is *doing.* NOBODY can know that. Sure, it is possible God had something to do with getting them a job or curing their cancer, but whatever happened was the result of a free will decision someone made, or some free will decision someone else made that affected them, Imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, the Atheist position is most illogical. Then Theist, & Agnostic is most strictly logical. But a mix of Agnosticism & taking the spirit of Theism (not letter of the law) is the best intuitively & practically. (Fowler’s faith stages: Theists stage 3, Agnostic 4 & a mix of logic & intuition stage 5. Chart of James Fowler's Stages of Faith | psychologycharts.com )

Atheism is illogical because:

1) The word itself means “without theism” & many illogically claim they don’t claim anything yet there are countless books (theology) on Atheism and “how to be an independent thinker” lol.

2) Too many definitions of God to even know, some have spent their lives trying to understand. Yet Atheists dismiss it all on blind faith, haven’t even bothered to learn about what they so confidently deny. Some definitions cannot be proven or denied (like God is truth, love... the experience of God is within you). Yet Atheists again deny what they are clueless about.

3) This one only applies to those obsessed with Atheism, but is hilariously ironic! Paul Tillech defined god as “one’s ultimate concern” so when Atheists make arguing Atheism their obsession, they are proving and showing their god they worship.

I agree that saying “I know god does not exist” is illogical since nobody can prove that god does not exist. However, most atheists I know say their position is “I do not believe god exists” and that is not necessarily illogical because it is really an agnostic position masquerading as atheism.

Even though I believe/know God exists I would never disparage those who do not believe God exists… It is ALL about the evidence, and they just do not have the evidence *they need* in order to believe God exists. Sure, I think I have good evidence, but my evidence is not considered evidence to nonbelievers.

If I do anything, I try to understand *why* they do not consider it good evidence, instead of criticizing them. So far, I have had a few answers. The main one is that god would not/should not use Messengers to prove He exists because there have been so many false prophets. I have been able to blow that argument out of the water using logic. Another answer I get is that god should communicate directly with *everyone* on earth, and I have blown that out of the water many, many times. Then some nonbelievers say that if *an omnipotent god* exists he should be able to prove it in some fashion and he is obligated to do so…. I have blown that out of the water several times as well…….. I have spent the better part of the last four years blowing stuff out of the water because I love logic and psychology, and I am very interested in God.

By far the most logical position I have heard from a nonbeliever is that there is just *no reason* to believe god exists. For example, there are other explanations for creation and we do not need god for anything. I do not believe that but I accept that because I realize that we all *reason* differently. I think God accepts that too, although I can never *know* that. What I think God does not like are the nonbelievers who give god marching orders, as if an omnipotent God is a short order cook…. That is just so illogical.

I just have to share the punch line of what one atheist on another forum said to me a few months ago. It was a very lengthy post so I won’t go into the details. In short, he had it all figured out how and why he was not going to land in hell (there are ex-Christians who tend to worry about that). The gist of it was that God has provided NO good evidence that he exists so it is all God’s fault he does not believe in God. After all, he said, the real God would never expect me to believe in these “messengers” that represent imaginary gods. In fact, he said, the real God would give me credit for not being irrational and believing what religious people believe.

I do not worry about the *final destination* of very many nonbelievers but I do worry about this man. According to my beliefs, God does not *send* anyone to hell; rather, we make our own hell by being separated from God. The only way out of hell is by God’s mercy or the prayers of others. I will surely pray for this man but there is one caveat; unless God accepts my prayers this man will remain in his self-made hell.

Everyone on the forum I was on kept wondering why I kept posting to this man because of his arrogant attitude towards God. The man thought I was trying to win an argument because he was projecting onto me his motives. I was not trying to *win* anything. I just cared about this man and his plight in the hereafter. But there was nothing I could do. As Jesus said, shake the dust off your feet… Stubborn as I am, I was knee deep in dust before we parted ways but if he posted to me again I would post back. There is always a chance anyone can change given God is omnipotent and God’s mercy and love has no bounds.