Is God a real *********?

[Blackdog22]

One cannot appreciate something before he experiences the opposite. A man may not appreciate his food as much unless he felt hunger (longing for food). Happiness will not be as happy if you don't feel sadness at first.

It is because of our free will that we can learn to appreciate. If God decides to take that free will, then we will be like mindless zombie.

Not appreciating something as much because you don't know how bad life can be doesn't make anyone a zombie by any means. It just means you don't understand what suffering is, and I don't see that as a bad thing, maybe you do.

We don't know what its like to fly so does that mean we can't fully appreciate walking? Is God infringing on our freewill by not including flying? How about having three arms? Three arms would be better than two when your busy. Do we need three to appreciate two? Did God take away our freewill by not allowing us three arms? The argument goes on add infinity and no matter how much you argue the opposite it makes no sense in the long run.

 

[victormeldrew]

I was at work code reviewing other peoples code when I stumbled onto the youtube video shown below

Here are some of the points in the video:

She points out that there is so much suffering in the in the world and then argues:
"If god is all powerfull and all loving and god gives a ****** about us and has the ability to do something about that then this world doesn't make sense"

Also since God dosn't want to get rid of pain then:
"Either he is an ********* or he is not real"

Thoughts?

There is no God. Religious people have made Him up. They have made up the illogical rules by which they think He operates.

The existence of suffering is easy to understand. We live in a dangerous, violent Universe, ruled by serendipity. There is no plan.

Religious people have started in the wrong place. They look at the sky and think the Sun goes round the Earth. Then they look at the retrograde motions of the planets. They try to explain them by making up bizarre models of wheels within wheels.

Religious people make up stories to fit their preconceptions.

Can we excuse them for building story upon story? "Well, you can understand how someone could think that it looked like the Sun goes round the Earth."

Really? What would it look like if the Earth went round the Sun?

Victor.

(Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)

God says sorry. - YouTube

 

[Koldo]

All I'm asking is for someone to state what is wrong with suffering. It's wrongness is the basis of the discussion.

In my opinion, the wrongness of suffering lies in the fact that suffering seems to be incompatible with utmost happiness.

 

[Willamena]

In my opinion, the wrongness of suffering lies in the fact that suffering seems to be incompatible with utmost happiness.

Considering how many people voluntarily seek out suffering, perhaps it's not all that dichotomous.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

I have no sound on my computer so I cannot watch the video. I have to go by the description alone. I believe that God is real, and that God cares about us. We might not like things that happen that we do not understand, but we can trust God to care for us. Hebrews 13:5 says that He will not desert nor forsake believers.

 

[Koldo]

Considering how many people voluntarily seek out suffering, perhaps it's not all that dichotomous.

As i see it, those who truly voluntarily seek out suffering are already suffering, perhaps from the lack of something.

 

[religion99]

I was at work code reviewing other peoples code when I stumbled onto the youtube video shown below

Here are some of the points in the video:

She points out that there is so much suffering in the in the world and then argues:
"If god is all powerfull and all loving and god gives a ****** about us and has the ability to do something about that then this world doesn't make sense"

Also since God dosn't want to get rid of pain then:
"Either he is an ********* or he is not real"

Thoughts?

[youtube]0pPoRnjFC6E[/youtube]
Would you still be an atheist if... - YouTube

There is a third option: Indifferent God or rather Gods. A philosophical argument that Gods have neither ability nor willingness to meddle in the affairs of Universe. They are in perfect state of bliss and knowledge and know everything about sufferings , but they are neither sympathetic nor antipathic to the World. And this is a logical because some of the problems of the world are so complex that it is impossible to even take a stand on them ( forget about solving ) without hurting and causing sufferings to one of the involved party.

There is no contradiction in having multiple "Indifferent Gods" , because they are indifferent and hence don't step on each other's toes.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

There is no God. Religious people have made Him up. They have made up the illogical rules by which they think He operates.

The existence of suffering is easy to understand. We live in a dangerous, violent Universe, ruled by serendipity. There is no plan.

Religious people have started in the wrong place. They look at the sky and think the Sun goes round the Earth. Then they look at the retrograde motions of the planets. They try to explain them by making up bizarre models of wheels within wheels.

Religious people make up stories to fit their preconceptions.

Can we excuse them for building story upon story? "Well, you can understand how someone could think that it looked like the Sun goes round the Earth."

Really? What would it look like if the Earth went round the Sun?

Victor.

(Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)

God says sorry. - YouTube

There is no God? Prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have made a strong claim about the lack of existence of something. Surely you have awareness of everything in existence including what might possibly exist outside our universe?


Nothing happens in our universe far more often than violence. Stuff just floats around 99.99999% of the time. Violent universe? Try again. Ruled by serendipity? I suppose you were meaning to say coincidence, and that might very well be true. But again where is the evidence? How would we know how to distinguish an extra-terrestrial influence from the lack thereof? Do YOU happen to have a spare universe lying around which happens to be free from alien influence so we can compare it to our own universe?

Religious people started there? Right... It certainly had nothing to do with the collective observations of millions of ancestors who thought that way. Tradition is a powerful thing. You might very well be one of the "lucky" people who is willing and able to question the mold that is cast for people, but that doesn't actually mean that it was easy to get there. Rationality is a hard path to tread requiring constant self-analysis and comparison to your fellows. The fact that you are so hard on for critiquing a particular set of people while not exposing your own ideas to a similarly vicious set of critique indicates to me that your rationalism is not as strong as you would like us to believe.


All people make up stories to fit their preconceptions. Rationality is not easy. Even the most rational person on the planet is occasionally guilty of embellishment or misconstruing the evidence. Trying to blame religion for human bias is itself a show of bias.


The common sense notion of what it would look like if the earth went around the sun is that it would look very different than what it looks like to us. Why? Because early people did not think that the earth spun on its axis. They believed that the motion of the sun around the earth accounted for the extreme rate at which the sun appeared to move across the "heavens." If the earth merely moved around the sun, then it would move very slowly (in accordance with the procession of the seasons).

If you are going to try and provoke questions in others, then you have to be willing to scrutinize your own ideas and arguments the same way.


Extraordinary arguments require avoiding extraordinary bias.

MTF

 

[religion99]

There is no God? Prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have made a strong claim about the lack of existence of something. Surely you have awareness of everything in existence including what might possibly exist outside our universe?


Nothing happens in our universe far more often than violence. Stuff just floats around 99.99999% of the time. Violent universe? Try again. Ruled by serendipity? I suppose you were meaning to say coincidence, and that might very well be true. But again where is the evidence? How would we know how to distinguish an extra-terrestrial influence from the lack thereof? Do YOU happen to have a spare universe lying around which happens to be free from alien influence so we can compare it to our own universe?

Religious people started there? Right... It certainly had nothing to do with the collective observations of millions of ancestors who thought that way. Tradition is a powerful thing. You might very well be one of the "lucky" people who is willing and able to question the mold that is cast for people, but that doesn't actually mean that it was easy to get there. Rationality is a hard path to tread requiring constant self-analysis and comparison to your fellows. The fact that you are so hard on for critiquing a particular set of people while not exposing your own ideas to a similarly vicious set of critique indicates to me that your rationalism is not as strong as you would like us to believe.


All people make up stories to fit their preconceptions. Rationality is not easy. Even the most rational person on the planet is occasionally guilty of embellishment or misconstruing the evidence. Trying to blame religion for human bias is itself a show of bias.


The common sense notion of what it would look like if the earth went around the sun is that it would look very different than what it looks like to us. Why? Because early people did not think that the earth spun on its axis. They believed that the motion of the sun around the earth accounted for the extreme rate at which the sun appeared to move across the "heavens." If the earth merely moved around the sun, then it would move very slowly (in accordance with the procession of the seasons).

If you are going to try and provoke questions in others, then you have to be willing to scrutinize your own ideas and arguments the same way.


Extraordinary arguments require avoiding extraordinary bias.

MTF

If there is a God, Please describe its Attributes.

 

[TashaN]

I was at work code reviewing other peoples code when I stumbled onto the youtube video shown below

Here are some of the points in the video:

She points out that there is so much suffering in the in the world and then argues:
"If god is all powerfull and all loving and god gives a ****** about us and has the ability to do something about that then this world doesn't make sense"

Also since God dosn't want to get rid of pain then:
"Either he is an ********* or he is not real"

Thoughts?

[youtube]0pPoRnjFC6E[/youtube]
Would you still be an atheist if... - YouTube

This argument became like a broken record.

People who make such an argument accuse God of things before even understanding God's purpose in creating this life for us.

We are not in Paradise, so don't expect to live in love, peace, and harmony forever. It's pointless for us to live on earth without being tested by pain, war, poverty, evil, etc. God put us here to test us and put the goodness within us in test.

 

[TashaN]

If there is a God, Please describe its Attributes.

There you go.

99 Attributes of Allah SWT

I know this question wasn't directed at me but i thought you be interested.

 

[AgreeToDisagree]

Not appreciating something as much because you don't know how bad life can be doesn't make anyone a zombie by any means. It just means you don't understand what suffering is, and I don't see that as a bad thing, maybe you do.

We don't know what its like to fly so does that mean we can't fully appreciate walking? Is God infringing on our freewill by not including flying? How about having three arms? Three arms would be better than two when your busy. Do we need three to appreciate two? Did God take away our freewill by not allowing us three arms? The argument goes on add infinity and no matter how much you argue the opposite it makes no sense in the long run.

I think you misread my point. read my conversation with lunakilo to understand what i was talking about regarding life on earth and life in the afterlife.
Looking at your personal info i would assume you are a Christian but i may be wrong. Do you believe in God? Coz you do seem to not believe in God.

Can you honestly tell me that you don't appreciate your normal figure of having 2 hands when you see people with 3 or no hands or even a disfigured hands? if you have a tiny amount of compassion, then you would.

The argument goes on add infinity and no matter how much you argue the opposite it makes no sense in the long run.

So are you saying we should all stop replying to this thread?

 

[Blackdog22]

I think you misread my point. read my conversation with lunakilo to understand what i was talking about regarding life on earth and life in the afterlife.
Looking at your personal info i would assume you are a Christian but i may be wrong. Do you believe in God? Coz you do seem to not believe in God.

Can you honestly tell me that you don't appreciate your normal figure of having 2 hands when you see people with 3 or no hands or even a disfigured hands? if you have a tiny amount of compassion, then you would.

The point I was replying too was this statement,

"It is because of our free will that we can learn to appreciate. If God decides to take that free will, then we will be like mindless zombie."

Your exclaiming that without freewill we wouldn't be able to appreciate anything and we would just be zombies. My above response proved that makes no sense, since we don't have freewill. We cannot fly, thus God has infringed on our ability to truly experience how dull walking can be. That must mean we are zombies! No it doesn't work. If God intends for heaven to be Perfect then your belief must be that only zombies will live in Heaven, how exactly do you make sense of that.

So are you saying we should all stop replying to this thread?

You can reply as much as you want to the original post, that being why does God allow suffering, however pointing to freewill as the reason we have to suffer should end here. Because it makes no sense.

 

[religion99]

There you go.

99 Attributes of Allah SWT

I know this question wasn't directed at me but i thought you be interested.

If God is creator , what raw material did he use to create?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In my opinion, the wrongness of suffering lies in the fact that suffering seems to be incompatible with utmost happiness.

So is boredom.

 

[AgreeToDisagree]

The point I was replying too was this statement,

"It is because of our free will that we can learn to appreciate. If God decides to take that free will, then we will be like mindless zombie."

Your exclaiming that without freewill we wouldn't be able to appreciate anything and we would just be zombies. My above response proved that makes no sense, since we don't have freewill. We cannot fly, thus God has infringed on our ability to truly experience how dull walking can be. That must mean we are zombies! No it doesn't work. If God intends for heaven to be Perfect then your belief must be that only zombies will live in Heaven, how exactly do you make sense of that.

When did i exclaim that we don't have free will? Noticed the "IF" in my sentence? Your response proves nothing because you don't understand what i'm saying because you are under the impression that i'm talking about reality.

God can and has the ability to make us blissful even in the worst condition. But God knows that we wouldn't want that coz it may seems like we are no more that a mindless zombies. That is what i'm talking about... it is in the "IF" realm ... it's not in reality.

furthermore even if we can't fly, this free will made it possible for us to make flying vehicles hence we can fly.

You can reply as much as you want to the original post, that being why does God allow suffering, however pointing to freewill as the reason we have to suffer should end here. Because it makes no sense.

Like i said ... read my whole posts. don't just cherry pick to start an argument. you are beginning to sound like a troll coz you are arguing at the explanation of the explanation of the topic.

Read post reply #71. People who don't believe in God don't believe in afterlife. Then they question suffering in this life. For people who believe in God, they also believe in afterlife and the suffering in this life will be compensated in the afterlife. then it expanded from there which u eagerly tried to argue.

 

[pwfaith]

We don't have enough threads about the problem of suffering, we have to suffer one more?

My thoughts exactly. Although I do always wonder if people believe God causes suffering, is the opposite true as well, do they also credit God with the blessings received in the world?

These are my thoughts, up for the taking or leaving

I think everyone questions why in times like suffering. I think it's natural. I think some things we will just never have an answer for and that is SO hard. For me, that's just part of where faith and trust comes in. I don't say that loosely either. I honestly don't know where it comes from other than from God. For me, I know in my heart that God is good, that God's plans are more distant and eternal than I could ever understand. I just have faith and trust that God has a purpose and a plan and he allows things for a reason. That doesn't make it less painful for us, the ones left behind but it gives me a sense of peace. I found this verse when we had our first m/c "These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (1 Peter 1:7) I learned that when these things happen it shows me how much I really do need God and need his infinite strength to get me through. I am weak, He is strong. I don't believe all suffering is bad. Test, trials, tribulations can often make us stronger, better people. The only purpose/reason/plan that I can see is for Jesus to be revealed. I guess to people who don't believe in Jesus that's not a big deal but for me as a Christian that's a wonderful thing and very important. I don't always know how or when he will be revealed, again part of faith and trust. Heck I may never even see him revealed through me and my trial, I just pray that he will be to someone else, even if I never know it. As I said it doesn't take away all the pain for me but it does bring me a sense of peace and comfort.

I have always remembered something our pastor said as well, "God will never go against his own will and will not impose on the will of others." God allows sometimes tragic things to happen b/c he allows people to have free will, even when that means doing wrong and harming people, b/c we aren't robots

But I believe God can take anything and bring good from it.

I don't know if anything I've said makes sense or just makes things worse. That is what has gotten me through some tough, very sad times. I still ask Why though and still miss my loved ones very much, but I do have a sense of peace and comfort in what I believe, if that makes sense.

 

[Shades-o-Blue]

I was at work code reviewing other peoples code when I stumbled onto the youtube video shown below

Here are some of the points in the video:

She points out that there is so much suffering in the in the world and then argues:
"If god is all powerfull and all loving and god gives a ****** about us and has the ability to do something about that then this world doesn't make sense"

Also since God dosn't want to get rid of pain then:
"Either he is an ********* or he is not real"

Thoughts?

Maybe our physical pain isn't as important in God's eyes, as our spiritual pain.

 

[pwfaith]

Maybe our physical pain isn't as important in God's eyes, as our spiritual pain.

Of course, b/c Jesus had not sympathy or compassion for those he me who were suffering or in pain, right?

 

[Shades-o-Blue]

Of course, b/c Jesus had not sympathy or compassion for those he me who were suffering or in pain, right?

Not seeing the need for sarcasm, here. I was simply pointing out that from an eternal perspective, God is more interested in saving our souls than he is sparing our physical bodies from pain. I believe sometimes he inflicts/allows pain to get our attention.