Is God against astrology?

[Pegg]

They're just as true as yours is; your religion is based off of many of them.


1)Charting the movement of the sun through it's positions near various constellations isn't divination. Saying being born under one of these constellations determines your future is. Do you see the difference?

2)The Bible makes numerous allegorical references to the sun and constellations; either God really doesn't mind this fact, or the Bible contradicts itself. I'll let you choose since it doesn't affect me at all.

i agree that charting the movement of the stars is not divination... thats astronomy and Gods servants were familiar with the constellations....but they did not take the view that the movement of the stars were a means to foretell the future, or held special significance in the way astrologers do.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

i agree that charting the movement of the stars is not divination... thats astronomy and Gods servants were familiar with the constellations....but they did not take the view that the movement of the stars were a means to foretell the future, or held special significance in the way astrologers do.

I agree; they just took these constellations and gave them special symbolism throughout their own religion, as is evidenced throughout the Bible.

 

[Breathe]

But not deliberately chosen by them out of any reference to Pisces, right? They just loved fish, and loved Jesus, so it all made sense in the end...

No, it's a reference to "I will make you {those who follow him} fishers of men".

Until the astrological parallels were added in the Gospels after Mark.Remember that Mark didn't mention the virgin birth, or many of the miracles supposedly performed by Jesus.

Well, no. And Mark was the earliest.

1)Hades was an eternal afterlife; the idea of eternal life was nothing new to these people. It wasn't seen as a bad place to go; even the heroes went to Hades, as Olympus was reserved strictly for the gods.

Though not all Greeks believed in afterlife, Hades was seen as a gloomy place in earlier stories. It wasn't unpleasant, but the Christian view would have definitely sounded nicer.

2)Why would people who didn't believe in punishment for sins be attracted by the idea of repentance and forgiveness of sins?

That's not quite right; there are stories of punishment for misdeeds in Greek lore, and even then, people regret things in life, and people make mistakes. Christians would have been able to confess their own sins and say that God had forgiven them of their mistakes, and they would not be held accountable for their past mistakes.

Christianity really had nothing good to offer Hellenic pagans until the addition of astrological parallels.

I'm not seeing anything to support that claim.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I would say that by and large, astology is in fact a total waste of time!

But that said, it's very interesting that the Book of Revelation was written using a fair amount of astrological symbolism; and indeed, there have beene whole books written explaining this!

This doesn't in any way mean astrology's legitimate as such; just that its symbolism was employed illustratively in many of the prophecies there. . . .

Peace,

Bruce

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

No, it's a reference to "I will make you {those who follow him} fishers of men".

Another Pisces reference... This quote is found in Matthew (4:19), one of the first Gospels to introduce the astrological parallels (it's debated whether or not Matthew came before Luke). This was the beginning of the mass conversion of the Hellenic pagans. If it wasn't a Pisces reference, it sure as hell was pretty convenient, no?

Well, no. And Mark was the earliest.

Exactly.

Though not all Greeks believed in afterlife, Hades was seen as a gloomy place in earlier stories. It wasn't unpleasant, but the Christian view would have definitely sounded nicer.

The underworld wasn't described as an all-around gloomy place. The Elysian fields, which were reserved for the bravest of heroes, were very similar to the Christian heaven. Then there was the Asphodel Meadows where everyone else lived, and this place was seen as pretty average; no different from Earth. The only gloomily described place was Tartarus, which housed the Titans and other evil beasts of Hades. Tartarus later became known in Roman mythology as the place of suffering for evil souls (as referenced in Dante's Divine Comedy), but this was after the conversion of the Hellenic pagans.

That's not quite right; there are stories of punishment for misdeeds in Greek lore, and even then, people regret things in life, and people make mistakes. Christians would have been able to confess their own sins and say that God had forgiven them of their mistakes, and they would not be held accountable for their past mistakes.

The gods punished people, but they still went to the same place when they died. There was no need to repent and improve their standing with the gods in order to save their immortal souls; that was a new idea introduced by Christianity.

 

[Breathe]

Another Pisces reference... This quote is found in Matthew (4:19), one of the first Gospels to introduce the astrological parallels (it's debated whether or not Matthew came before Luke). This was the beginning of the mass conversion of the Hellenic pagans. If it wasn't a Pisces reference, it sure as hell was pretty convenient, no?

Again, no; not a Pisces reference.
A reference to a rural, manual labour force, whom Jesus is attributed to have hung around, and not really around the beginning of the mass conversion of Helenic pagans.

The underworld wasn't described as an all-around gloomy place. The Elysian fields, which were reserved for the bravest of heroes, were very similar to the Christian heaven.

Exactly. Christianity posited a way into that place.

Then there was the Asphodel Meadows where everyone else lived, and this place was seen as pretty average; no different from Earth.

For weary people who were sick of an ordinary life in their culture, this sounds unpleasant, though.

There was no need to repent and improve their standing with the gods in order to save their immortal souls;

Because most people were going into the same place.

that was a new idea introduced by Christianity.

Worked, though, didn't it?

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Again, no; not a Pisces reference.
A reference to a rural, manual labour force, whom Jesus is attributed to have hung around, and not really around the beginning of the mass conversion of Helenic pagans.

It was written in the book of Matthew, which popped up around the the time of the Hellenic conversion. If you don't want to believe it's a reference to Pisces, that's your prerogative, but I certainly don't think it's just a coincidence or that the purpose of the saying was Jesus reaching out to the proletariat of the time... Seems like a naive cop-out.

Exactly. Christianity posited a way into that place.

There was already a way into that place. People who died glorious deaths on the battlefield or performed great deeds were allowed entry into Elysium.

For weary people who were sick of an ordinary life in their culture, this sounds unpleasant, though.

The Greeks didn't view Asphodel as a dull place to be dreaded at all. It was simply just an accepted fact that those who weren't valiant warriors or heroes would spend eternity there and be content without suffering. Nothing at all unpleasant about it.

Because most people were going into the same place.

And everyone was okay with that.

Worked, though, didn't it?

To this day I can't understand why. I'd so much rather pray to the Greek gods if I had to choose... Dionysus is like 50 times cooler than Yahweh and Jesus combined.

 

[Breathe]

It was written in the book of Matthew, which popped up around the the time of the Hellenic conversion. If you don't want to believe it's a reference to Pisces, that's your prerogative, but I certainly don't think it's just a coincidence or that the purpose of the saying was Jesus reaching out to the proletariat of the time... Seems like a naive cop-out.

I can see what you're saying, but I find the idea of it to be pareidolia more than anything. If that's what you think, though, that's cool by me, but I don't think it has any real basis.

There was already a way into that place. People who died glorious deaths on the battlefield or performed great deeds were allowed entry into Elysium.

Exactly, and not everyone could die a glorious death. It was probably women who first were drawn to Christianity, being offered entry to Paradise while their husband went somewhere 'better' because he was willing to die.

The Greeks didn't view Asphodel as a dull place to be dreaded at all. It was simply just an accepted fact that those who weren't valiant warriors or heroes would spend eternity there and be content without suffering. Nothing at all unpleasant about it.

I don't think most people thought of it as a place to be dreaded, but that many people didn't want 'more of the same' when they died, which is why a Paradisal afterlife sounded so appealing, just like today there are people who find the idea of an afterlife to be so unpleasant.

To this day I can't understand why. I'd so much rather pray to the Greek gods if I had to choose... Dionysus is like 50 times cooler than Yahweh and Jesus combined.

There's plenty of Pagan revivalists and reconstructionists out there. Hellenic is one of the bigger ones. Ásatrú, Hellenic, and Roman being the larger ones.

But, Dionysus ain't got nothin' on Kālī; now there's a kick-*** divinity.

 

[Pegg]

I agree; they just took these constellations and gave them special symbolism throughout their own religion, as is evidenced throughout the Bible.

really, can you show me some examples?

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

I don't think that God would care one way or the other since it's more or less a harmless practice.

By the way "astrology" was considered a legitimate field of study by the Catholic church in the middle ages, since the Church believed that if the universe was created by God, he/she/it would certainly have put some kind of order in the universe, and those patterns could be studied and read by people.

 

[Muffled]

I practice astrology in that I read people's charts sometimes. I do check my horoscope from time to time, etc. What is your opinion on this. Astrology good or bad? thanks.

I beleive reading Astrology works by the spirit and if that is not the Spirit of God much harm can be done.

Note that the wise men who came to present gifts at the birth of Jesus were astrologers but thier actions not guided by God almost got Jesus killed by Herod.

 

[Muffled]

I suggest that the first thing to establish is whether astrology is real.

Considering that the stars in some constellations are at disparate distances, and one is hard-pressed to think of any mechanism, I find it hard to see astrology as anything other than superstition.

People are apt to accept anything that allows them to outsource their thinking. I suppose that astrology is just another of those.

I believe astrology is as real as the telescope. It is an invention of man based on what is in the heavens. I believe your real question is whether the practice of astrology has any validity.

I believe that may be because you are superstitious. (believing things without evidence)

 

[Muffled]

IMO Astrology is fine when it's treated as a bit of fun or a hobby. It only becomes problematic when people start trying to fit their whole life around it. I also doubt any gods worth paying attention to would really care about the morality of astrology.

I believe that is what my wife thought when she was playing with the ouija board and encountered a demon in the process.

It became a problem for me without me realizing that it was a problem. My wife and cousin prayed to God and God showed me a better way and I can honestly say that I am thankful for not having that heavy burden anymore.

Jeshovah does care about people's welfare as indicated by Him going through crucifixion for us in Jesus.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

really, can you show me some examples?

I already have...

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I believe that is what my wife thought when she was playing with the ouija board and encountered a demon in the process.

... You know that stuff is fake, right?

 

[nash8]

I would argue that the stars do affect our personalities directly. Stars give off massive amounts of photonic energy, photonic energy drives all of our biological process. So I would say that it very logical to assume that the stars affect us. But to assume that human logic can decipher the way in which specific alignments of stars emit certain kinds of photonic energy that affect humans in certain ways... a little more of a stretch, but not totally illogical in my opinion.

 

[Erebus]

I believe that is what my wife thought when she was playing with the ouija board and encountered a demon in the process.

It became a problem for me without me realizing that it was a problem. My wife and cousin prayed to God and God showed me a better way and I can honestly say that I am thankful for not having that heavy burden anymore.

Jeshovah does care about people's welfare as indicated by Him going through crucifixion for us in Jesus.

I'm afraid there's not a single point we agree on here and I also strongly doubt either of us will convince the other of the merits of our position. With that in mind I'll just say "fair enough, but I don't agree" and leave it there.

 

[Looncall]

I would argue that the stars do affect our personalities directly. Stars give off massive amounts of photonic energy, photonic energy drives all of our biological process. So I would say that it very logical to assume that the stars affect us. But to assume that human logic can decipher the way in which specific alignments of stars emit certain kinds of photonic energy that affect humans in certain ways... a little more of a stretch, but not totally illogical in my opinion.

Considering the distances involved, the amount of light energy that reaches us from stars is orders of magnitude beneath trivial. Have you not noticed the size of the instrjments used to study stars?

Stars that we suppose to be parts of the same constellation are separated in space by immense distances. It is the height of folly to suppose that constellations have any significance other than marking time by their position in the sky.

 

[nash8]

Considering the distances involved, the amount of light energy that reaches us from stars is orders of magnitude beneath trivial. Have you not noticed the size of the instrjments used to study stars?

Stars that we suppose to be parts of the same constellation are separated in space by immense distances. It is the height of folly to suppose that constellations have any significance other than marking time by their position in the sky.

I would agree with that for the most part. I would however say that the fact that we can see stars with the naked eye means that enough energy reaches earth, that it has some effect on biological processes. The reception of light into the eye and proccessing of that information is after all, a biological process.

Do you have any links to information about how much different star's energy reaches earth, and maybe what types of energy as well. I know the visible light spectrum, but I haven't really been able to find much information even on that.

On that note how can we differentiate between photonic energy from the sun and photonic energy from other stars? Freqency would be the same coming from both sources. Amplitude maybe, but then agiain the Sun puts off so many different amplitudes, how would you be able to decipher a weak photonic emission from the sun, from a strong emission from another star that has weakend over the massive distance it has had to travel to reach earth?

 

[Looncall]

I would agree with that for the most part. I would however say that the fact that we can see stars with the naked eye means that enough energy reaches earth, that it has some effect on biological processes. The reception of light into the eye and proccessing of that information is after all, a biological process.

Do you have any links to information about how much different star's energy reaches earth, and maybe what types of energy as well. I know the visible light spectrum, but I haven't really been able to find much information even on that.

On that note how can we differentiate between photonic energy from the sun and photonic energy from other stars? Freqency would be the same coming from both sources. Amplitude maybe, but then agiain the Sun puts off so many different amplitudes, how would you be able to decipher a weak photonic emission from the sun, from a strong emission from another star that has weakend over the massive distance it has had to travel to reach earth?

Thanks for your eloquent post.

I have seen a calculation that the light arriving here from an individual star is on the order of a millionth of a watt per square meter, but I don't remember the source. High-energy frequencies are largely absorbed by the atmosphere.

Particle radiations produce radioisotopes in the upper atmosphere, but here again, the effect of a single star or of a few, which is needed for astrology, is miniscule.

As to distinguishing starlight from sunlight, I suppose direction would be the easiest way.

Ancient peoples went to great lengths to understand things but lacked the means to do so. It is unfortunate that their errors persist.