Is god evil

[Truth in love]

God, whose name is Jehovah (see Isa 12:2, KJV), did not plan Adam's and Eve's disobedience, for that would make him just as guilty as they were, knowing full well that they would sin or "miss" the mark of perfect obedience.(Note: the word "sin" is from the Hebrew word chattath that means to "miss", as in missing when trying to reach a goal, way, mark; the Greek word is hamartia) When an engineer wants to see if a product he designed will work effectively, what does he do ? He tests it to see if it will do as hopes.

An engineer's testing is to find out if what he created would "meet specifications", which in the case of Adam and Eve did not, for perfect obedience was the goal. However, Adam and Eve were given "free choice", unlike say a mechanical product that is preprogrammed.

If, say a mechanic or auto technician were to knowingly place a defective part on a car, and it subsequently failed, he would be guilty. On the other hand, Adam and Eve were created perfect (Gen 1:31), with no flaws, so that if they failed the test, the fault would be their own.

They were both informed at Genesis 2:16, 17 of the consequences of death if they violated Jehovah's command to not touch "the tree of knowledge of good and bad", that established Jehovah's right to set moral boundaries for us as humans, who were created with a "built-in" conscience (Gen 1:26), sort of like a second person within ourselves that alerts us when we are about cross a moral boundary that we shouldn't cross, if it is trained right.

Note: the vast majority of mankind has never trained their conscience, for without intimately knowing Jehovah God, their conscience is basically working only "half-way" or just dead, and that is why there is so much moral corruption today, for Jehovah's archenemy Satan pushes the masses of mankind in "the wrong direction", misleading "the entire inhabited earth", Rev 12:9.

It was Satan the Devil (who also has free will) who initiated the rebellion in the garden of Eden some 6,000 years ago, seducing Eve into believing that she would not die if she ate from "the tree of knowledge of good and bad", convincing her that she could be her own "boss", setting her own moral standards as to what is "good and bad", what is right and wrong, with the words: "You certainly will not die. For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad", even though just seconds earlier, Eve told Satan that she was not even to touch "the tree of knowledge of good and bad" or else die.(Gen 3:1-5)

So, Jehovah placed a simple test before Adam and Eve, and allowed it to play out, and soon found out that they did not love him as their "heavenly Father", but became "narcisstists", lovers of themselves, which introduced sin into the world, so that Romans 5:12 says: "That is why, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned."

If the fall was not planned we would not have had Christ promised before the world.

 

[Brian2]

Why would we have not been around then?

Because man was created after the world began and that was from dirt and the breathe of life from God. There is nothing about a spirit coming down to earth from heaven for the creation of Adam. Similarly with Eve and everyone else who has lived except Jesus.

John 3:12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

Only one has descended from heaven, Jesus, the Son of Man.
And He is the one who has been to heaven and knows/knew what He was talking about when He spoke to Nicodemus in John 3.

 

[dybmh]

Are you saying that Gen 2:17 cannot be a statement of certainty about their death. It would become certain on that day. Just as 1Kings 2:37 is a statement of certainty and not one saying on which day Shimmei would die.
The snake of course did lie to say Eve would not die no matter what it means.

It says both. It says "בְּי֛וֹם אֲכָלְךָ֥" which means "in the day you eat" and it also says "מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת" which means "certainly die".
Now, regarding the serpent and what it said... Understanding it requires a bit of hebrew knowledge. Basically, the way it's written it could be the serpent, as you said, told Eve she wouldn't die, which would be a lie. Or it could have been correcting her saying "No, certainly die" because she misquoted God's instructions, which would be true.

Here's what Eve says:

"But of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die." "lest you die" is not what God said. In hebrew "lest you die" is "בּ֑וֹ פֶּן־תְּמֻתֽוּן". But God didn't say "בּ֑וֹ פֶּן־תְּמֻתֽוּן". God said "certainly die" "מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת".

With me so far?

Now let's look at what the serpent says. Eve says "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die." Then the serpent says ( in hebrew ) "לֹא־מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן". This is double-speak deception coming from the serpent. "לֹא־מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן" can mean 2 different things, one true one false. This way the serpent can deceive Eve **without lying**. Doesn't this sound like the behavior of the most cunning beast of the field?

So breaking it down: the serpent says "לֹא־מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן". The word "לֹא" means "no" or "not". The words "מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן"mean "certainly die", this is the same words used by God back in Gen 2:17 when the prohibition from eating from the tree is given. Most people translate "לֹא־מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן" as the serpent saying "not certainly die" (which isn't true), but it can also mean "no, certainly die" (which is true because it is correcting the quote from God).

So here it is all together in English showing the serpent never outright lied:

Gen 2:17 - God says - "But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall certainly die."

Gen 3:1 - The serpent asks - "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?"

Gen 3:2-3 - Eve answers and attempts to quote God - "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, "You shall not eat of it, and you shall not touch it, lest you die."

Gen 3:4 - The serpent corrects Eve's misquote and says - "לֹא־מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן" "No, certainly die".

So, by using double-speak the serpent was able to be completely honest and still trick Eve because the words "לֹא־מ֖וֹת תְּמֻתֽוּן" can mean 2 completely different things depending on inflection. It could be "not certainly die" or "No, certainly die".

Thus, the serpent never lied, but it was still deceptive. Make sense?

 

[Truth in love]

Because man was created after the world began and that was from dirt and the breathe of life from God. There is nothing about a spirit coming down to earth from heaven for the creation of Adam. Similarly with Eve and everyone else who has lived except Jesus.

John 3:12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

Only one has descended from heaven, Jesus, the Son of Man.
And He is the one who has been to heaven and knows/knew what He was talking about when He spoke to Nicodemus in John 3.

John 3 does not say only one came down

“13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”


John 9:
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Clearly they believed that a person was around before birth.

A few other snap shots.
When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:4–7.
The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5.
We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28.
God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4.
We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9.
The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6.


Now this does not paint a complete picture, but it seems a clear that Bible teaches that we the children of God were around before birth.

 

[Vee]

No, what makes it evil is the punishment of death for eating an apple.

The punishment was not for eating the fruit (no one know if it was an apple BTW). The punishment was for disobeying. God gave them very specific instructions and told them the consequences, and in a moment of doubt, instead of asking him they trusted the information a stranger gave them and disobeyed their creator.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The punishment was not for eating the fruit (no one know if it was an apple BTW). The punishment was for disobeying. God gave them very specific instructions and told them the consequences, and in a moment of doubt, instead of asking him they trusted the information a stranger gave them and disobeyed their creator.

That is right.
We reap the consequences of our actions.

If it wasn't for God's vast Mercy, we would be in big problem.

 

[Bird123]

From what I see being said...
'in the beginning adam and eve would never die, suffer, etc if they did not eat the forbidden fruit. Instead of controlling them god gave them freewill to let them choose for themselves.

They knew the consequences yet chose(that free will thing) to eat the forbidden fruit. So from then on they experienced suffering, death, etc. because of the choice they made.

Was god evil or fair since they were allowed choices, not forced one way or the other?

If I lay an apple on the table and tell you don't eat that or you will die,, but you choose to eat it anyway and die..
Is that my fault? Does that make me evil? Or did you die by your own hand and choices?

First, Blame is a petty thing mankind holds so dear, yet Blame never brings the best results.

Let's examine what actually is. Stories that are written by mankind reflect mankind more than anything else. This is not God. Next, suffering and death, we are all eternal regardless that our physical bodies will die. Death is no more than a change. Suffering, and pain are no more than signs something is wrong. Fix it!!

It's about our choices. Adversity points the direction of our learning. So often these things we choose for ourselves. We choose what we want to learn. WE choose what we deem as suffering and what we deem as no more than a challenge. The choices are all ours.

Want a different life? Make different choices.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

No He does not. It is just something you made up. But you are just playing and making up silly things for the sake of argument and your own amusement.

This is easily fixed. Just quote me the part where God says that.

The snake said nothing about "the same day".

He doesn't have to. Eve has just said it to him, and he replies, totally correctly, "You will not die" [like that if you eat the fruit].

All the snake said is that Eve would not die. A big fat lie.

The context is wholly incompatible with your argument.. Nowhere in the story is there mention of sin, the Fall, death entering the world, all that later baggage which most Christians have embraced. And as I said, the ONLY reason God kicked them out ─ and [he] states it clearly at Genesis 3:22-23 ─ is to protect [his] own position. As I also said, [he] later knocks the Tower of Babel over for the same reason.

"The same day" either means that A@E died spiritually on that day, they lost their fellowship with God on that day, and I have seen that argued.

You might equally well argue that it means Adam and Eve were promised free tickets to Disneyland ─ that's not in the text either.

Another possible meaning is that what God said was not meant to show when they would die but was meant to show the certainty of their dying. They would be certain on that day that they would die.

And that too isn't in the text.

This is similar to other places in the OT where legal decisions are stated in a similar way. Eg 1Kings 2:36-38. (Shimei did not die on that day but the certainty of the carrying out of the sentence of death was known on that day. This seems like the best answer imo.

It could only be the best answer if you were trying to force a preconceived interpretation on the text which the text doesn't support. The bible is full of inconsistencies eg Thou shalt not kill next to Deuteronomy 7:1-2: “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Just because they did not have a general knowledge of good and evil that does not mean that they did not know that eating the fruit was wrong. They had after all been told that particular evil and the good it was paired with. (not eating the fruit)

That's just silly, with all due respect. EITHER they knew right from wrong, good from bad, OR they didn't. And the text says they didn't. And they didn't because God deliberately denied them that knowledge.

Do you think it's a good thing that humans know right from wrong? I think it is. That's yet another reason why I think trying to wish a Fall of Man onto the Garden story is total nonsense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

EITHER they knew right from wrong, good from bad, OR they didn't. And the text says they didn't. And they didn't because God deliberately denied them that knowledge.

Well, we certainly are "really smart" now.
So smart, in fact, that we are destroying our environment
i.e. climate-change

Perhaps knowledge is not necessarily good for us humans .. we aren't as smart as we think we are !

 

[blü 2]

[

Well, we certainly are "really smart" now.
So smart, in fact, that we are destroying our environment
i.e. climate-change

Perhaps knowledge is not necessarily good for us humans .. we aren't as smart as we think we are !

We are certainly good at doing extremely dumb things when there's a buck in it ─ World Wars, coal and petroleum, plastics in the environment, screwing the oceans, filling space with junk, a very long list.

But as the song says, you can't stop me from dreaming.

 

[InChrist]

Well Peter seemed to think so

1 Peter 1:
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

If there was no fall why would we need to be saved?

I am not arguing the fact that there was a fall, that God knew there would be, and had a plan to send a Savior. Just saying that disobedience is not condoned by God. Sin is always wrong.

 

[Truth in love]

I am not arguing the fact that there was a fall, that God knew there would be, and had a plan to send a Savior. Just saying that disobedience is not condoned by God. Sin is always wrong.

Sin is wrong.
I don’t find the word “sin” in the fall. They transgressed (ignorant of what they were doing to some degree perhaps like a young child who you tell to not hit, but who does not really get it).

This brought about the fall. God knowing all from the beginning planned for this.

 

[blü 2]

Sin is wrong.
I don’t find the word “sin” in the fall. They transgressed (ignorant of what they were doing to some degree perhaps like a young child who you tell to not hit, but who does not really get it).

This brought about the fall. God knowing all from the beginning planned for this.

I don't think there was a Fall anywhere. I think it's a later idea groping around for a retrofit. IF there was a Fall it's NOT in the Garden story. There God clearly states [his] reasons for booting Adam and Eve out at Genesis 3:22-23, and mentions no other reasons. That is, [he] boots them out because [he] feels threatened because if having eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they also eat the fruit of the tree of life, then they'll live forever and thus be the same as [him] ─ a rivalry [he] makes it plain [he] does not want.

 

[Truth in love]

I don't think there was a Fall anywhere. I think it's a later idea groping around for a retrofit. IF there was a Fall it's NOT in the Garden story. There God clearly states [his] reasons for booting Adam and Eve out at Genesis 3:22-23, and mentions no other reasons. That is, [he] boots them out because [he] feels threatened because if having eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they also eat the fruit of the tree of life, then they'll live forever and thus be the same as [him] ─ a rivalry [he] makes it plain [he] does not want.

The OT story is a bit vague, but the NT makes it clear that we are Gods children and can become like He is.

 

[blü 2]

The OT story is a bit vague, but the NT makes it clear that we are Gods children and can become like He is.

Indeed John's Jesus invites you to be one with god like he is eg John 17, but the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Matthew and Luke aren't quite so sure about the matter.

I'm unclear on the theology here. Should we go with the majority, or should we just pick and choose as pleases us best?

 

[F1fan]

That is right.
We reap the consequences of our actions.

If it wasn't for God's vast Mercy, we would be in big problem.

Of course a merciful God would have known that knowledge isn't bad and not made it an issue to be punished over. So if anyone needs to reap consequences for actions it is God. Is God evil? If you interpret the Old Testament literally, yes.

 

[blü 2]

If the fall was not planned we would not have had Christ promised before the world.

A similar thought is found in the 15th century song about Adam ─

Ne hadde the appil také ben ...
Ne hadde never our lady
A ben hevené quen
Blisséd be the time
That appil také was!
Therefore we moun singen
Deo gracias!​

 

[Bree]

From what I see being said...
'in the beginning adam and eve would never die, suffer, etc if they did not eat the forbidden fruit. Instead of controlling them god gave them freewill to let them choose for themselves.

They knew the consequences yet chose(that free will thing) to eat the forbidden fruit. So from then on they experienced suffering, death, etc. because of the choice they made.

Was god evil or fair since they were allowed choices, not forced one way or the other?

If I lay an apple on the table and tell you don't eat that or you will die,, but you choose to eat it anyway and die..
Is that my fault? Does that make me evil? Or did you die by your own hand and choices?

James 1:13 states: “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”

Job 34:10 says: “Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!”

Our actions fall on ourselves, we are responsible for our works be they good or bad.

 

[Truth in love]

Indeed John's Jesus invites you to be one with god like he is eg John 17, but the Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Matthew and Luke aren't quite so sure about the matter.

I'm unclear on the theology here. Should we go with the majority, or should we just pick and choose as pleases us best?

I think the unified message is best.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Romans 8:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Luke 20:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Seems like many voices through the NT agree on this.

 

[blü 2]

I think the unified message is best.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Romans 8:
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Luke 20:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Seems like many voices through the NT agree on this.

Thank you for those ─ some curious ideas.

It would be rather more believable that believers in Jesus are gods if they occasionally acted like gods. I think it's true of all religions, but not least Christianity, that believers act like humans instead.