Is God forgiving?

[sojourner]

Hello Blogger,

God is forgiving because he personally pardoned and erased the sins of wretched men, leaving them blameless and making them perfect in Christ.

You ask how this compares to a god who does not ask for a price to be paid. Well, in that case man would have to repent perfectly on his own and prove himself through works of righteousness that he is worthy of forgiveness and salvation. Yet fallen man is incapable of this and all of his efforts fall short. Hence the need for a savior, a messiah. Hence the need for Jesus Christ.

But not the need for his crucifixion.

 

[Heneni]

Well, in that case man would have to repent perfectly on his own and prove himself through works of righteousness that he is worthy of forgiveness and salvation.

Hi michael. True, repentance is granted by god, it is not something we can do by ourselves.

Act 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

heneni

 

[sojourner]

Hi michael. True, repentance is granted by god, it is not something we can do by ourselves.

Act 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

heneni

In that case, why is the gospel message that Jesus went about preaching: "Repent, for God's kingdom has come near?"

Could it be that the Acts passage illustrates God opening the kingdom to those who repent, but are not "us" (ethne) -- and does this not echo Christ's words at the end of Matthew to go out and make laos of all ethne?

 

[Heneni]

In that case, why is the gospel message that Jesus went about preaching: "Repent, for God's kingdom has come near?"

Could it be that the Acts passage illustrates God opening the kingdom to those who repent, but are not "us" (ethne) -- and does this not echo Christ's words at the end of Matthew to go out and make laos of all ethne?

The gospel must be preach all over the world and then the end will come. Hearing the gospel does not gauretee everybody will understand it and submit to the Lordship of Jesus christ.

1 Cor 2:14
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

The gospel must be preached as a testimony to the work of jesus on the cross, so that no man can say 'i did not know about this jesus'.

Repentance is a gift that god gives to those who listens and believes the gospel, and is moved to sorrow. Godly sorrow leads to repentance. If a man does not understand the gravity of his offense against god he cannot truly repent. Neither can a man understand his need for god, unless god opens his eyes to the fact.

Heneni

 

[sojourner]

The gospel must be preach all over the world and then the end will come. Hearing the gospel does not gauretee everybody will understand it and submit to the Lordship of Jesus christ.

'
That's not what Matt. 28:19,20 says, though. Nor is that what it means.

but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

And yet, we Gentiles have understood, and it is not foolishness to us...

The gospel must be preached as a testimony to the work of jesus on the cross, so that no man can say 'i did not know about this jesus'.

Do you know what the gospel message entails? it has very little to do with the cross.

 

[Heneni]

'
That's not what Matt. 28:19,20 says, though. Nor is that what it means.

And yet, we Gentiles have understood, and it is not foolishness to us...

Do you know what the gospel message entails? it has very little to do with the cross.

Im sorry sojourner, but the gospel is still foolishness to many gentiles or are you living in a cardboard box?

Take a look at this forum for example. You think they all understand the gospel.

If you want to be ignorant, please dont try so hard.

 

[sojourner]

Im sorry sojourner, but the gospel is still foolishness to many gentiles or are you living in a cardboard box?

whose living in a cardboard box? The great preponderance of Xy is Gentile.

Take a look at this forum for example. You think they all understand the gospel.

Not all Gentiles here are Xian.

If you want to be ignorant, please dont try so hard.

I thought ad hominem was prohibited by forum rules.

 

[Heneni]

whose living in a cardboard box? The great preponderance of Xy is Gentile.

Not all Gentiles here are Xian.

I thought ad hominem was prohibited by forum rules.

Clearly you seem to be one of those who 'dont get the gospel':sarcastic

 

[sojourner]

Clearly you seem to be one of those who 'dont get the gospel':sarcastic

I said that the great preponderance of Xy is Gentile.
I further said that not all Gentiles here are Xian.
I further stated that ad hominem attacks are prohibited here.

And those statements somehow make it "clear" that I'm "one of those who don't get the gospel."

 

[Heneni]

I said that the great preponderance of Xy is Gentile.
I further said that not all Gentiles here are Xian.
I further stated that ad hominem attacks are prohibited here.

And those statements somehow make it "clear" that I'm "one of those who don't get the gospel."

Indeed a sheep, but is he holy....which incendently means 'set apart' and since you believe that the most unholy folk are going to heaven all i can say is...:seesaw:.

May god forgive you!

I always feel like im doing this :laundry: when i talk to you. Have to clean out all the dirty theology....

But hey, i've got lots of detergent!

 

[sojourner]

since you believe that the most unholy folk are going to heaven all i can say is...:seesaw:.

Aren't they? Isn't it the poor in spirit who are blessed? Isn't it the dirty who are "washed in the blood?" The healthy have no need of a Physician. The very act of Incarnation set humanity apart from its condemnation.

May god forgive you!

Done!

I always feel like im doing this :laundry: when i talk to you. Have to clean out all the dirty theology....

I sincerely hope I've been able to help you do that!

But hey, i've got lots of detergent!

So do I. It's called "All."

 

[nameless]

god has no role to play in deciding whether it needs forgiveness or punishment.
The mind and waves from the mind, is those does this job so accurately.

 

[Blogger]

No, it doesn't mean God is unfair. God promises Christians his Holy Spirit to enable them to keep his commandments. The Holy Spirit is given in response to our faith in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and as this world's true Lord. That's not unfair.

And yes, sometimes we do ask children to do things beyond their abilities. It's how they grow and mature. That's not unfair, that's called parenting.

It's not compared. One of the signs that we have received God's forgiveness is that we forgive others.

What is the purpose of asking a child to do what he certainly cannot do. In order to make a child grow and mature dont we need to give them realistic challenges like doing better in school and not give them unrealistic challenges like to finish college at 12?

If it is simply a sign and not comparison can it also be said that everything we do to and for each other is a sign of what God does that? We harm others unfairly, we cheat in dealings etc,

 

[Blogger]

In the bible we have the account of Ananias who was struck dead after he lied to God
Heneni

I have a problem with this Biblical teaching because to lie in layman terms is to deliberately present false information with intent to deceive. In Islam God can never be deceived because he is the all-knowing. Does the Bible really teach that God can be lied to and such a God can actually deliver justice on Judgement Day?

 

[Blogger]

1 Cor 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
Heneni

Since forgiveness by cruxifiction is fundamental to Christianity, I would expect endless verses that emphasis this because salvation is significant. Can you please give us indisputable biblical verses that clearly say that the mission of Jesus was to die on the cross as a payment of sins.

 

[Amhairghine]

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Does this story make any sense? Let us put it in terms that are more familiar. Joe Hovak builds a wonderful garden community. He finds a couple of plain, simple, not too bright people to live in the first model home. They are Adam Australopithecus and his wife Eve Australopithecus-Habilis.

Joe tells Adam and Eve that they may live in the model home rent-free. However, they must obey certain strange rules. There is a tree with apples that will extend life spans. However, they are forbidden to eat the apples. There is another tree with nucleotide fruit that expands intelligence and permits humans to inquire, learn, and get smart. However, Joe does not want them to eat this nucleotide fruit because Adam or Eve might get as smart as Joe Hovak. In addition, that would be a major embarrassment.

Joe is a gangster type. You know; he wears a black pinstripe suit, black shirt, and white tie. All are happy.

Then Eve starts having questions about life, love, and the lottery she gets very curious. Then a slick skinny philosopher with no legs or arms, tells her to eat the fruit of the Nucleotide Tree because it will make her as smart as Joe Scar face Hovak. She does, and gives some to Adam. Suddenly Adam and Eve are speaking real vocal language, writing differential equations on the oak tree, and measuring tectonic plate movement with markers placed on either side of the East African rift zone.

Joe is furious. He cannot believe the audacity of those two primates. That sin must be punished. Therefore, Joe plans to sock it to them. He has a son whom he fathers by a human virgin. Joe's purpose is to have his own son sacrificed brutally by other bad humans, Romans, to avenge the sin of seeking knowledge by Adam and Eve.

Joe's reasoning is that by killing his own son, Jay Suss, Adam's sin can be forgiven???? Sceptics ask, "how does killing one's own child avenge a wrong done to you by your neighbour?" The Lord acts in mysterious ways.

Well, Joe sends his son, Jay to Hell as extra punishment in place of Adam and Eve. Duh? However, Joe then brings Jay back to life and raises him from the tomb. Jay, then a talking stiff walking zombie, walks about Jerusalem scaring the bajeezus out of children.

Joe is happy. However, after a few drinks at the Badda Bing, Joe changes his mind. "I do not care if Jay Suss Hovak died in vain or not, the original sin verdict has been upheld. You all are still going to die and you still will sin if you seek knowledge.

So, all of that hoopla about the original sin of illegal inquiry and unauthorised thinking leading to human loss of immortality was a horrible horrible sin against the pride of God. God's solution of shagging a human girl to produce his only begotten son, Jay, for the sole purpose of sacrificing Jay Suss Hovak to atone for the terrible sin...did not work. Jay is tortured, crucified, buried, went to Hell and back, and all for nothing. The sin and penalty still stand. Joe Hovak (God) failed. Jay Suss' life was wasted. We are all back where we started when Eve sought knowledge.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

What is lacking mate, is that the story is totally chaotic and insane. It is irrational and so silly it might be part of a Monty Python skit if not so linked to 6000 years of religious bigotry, millions of murders, oppression of women, justification of injustice, persecution of other religions, gay people, and those who show any compassion.

This story told to me by a Scottish Teacher when I was age 7 led me to a rapid conclusion that Christianity was bollocks and no such god could possibly exist. There may be some other god somewhere. But JHWY or Allah simply are self-contradictory if we believe these psychotic stories.

Amhairghine

 

[Amhairghine]

I have a problem with this Biblical teaching because to lie in layman terms is to deliberately present false information with intent to deceive. In Islam God can never be deceived because he is the all-knowing. Does the Bible really teach that God can be lied to and such a God can actually deliver justice on Judgement Day?

There are several falsehoods in the Bible making God look ignorant or a liar.

Satan took Jesus up on the Mount where they could see all of the nations of the world. You know the rest of the temptation. However, there is no mountain from which one can see all of the nations of the world unless the world if FLAT. One cannot see the Andean Empire, the Meso-American Empire, Japan, Korea, Champa, Hawaii, and New Zealand while also seeing Poland, Syria, Egypt, Scotland, and Parthia...then looking to the right and seeing the empire of the Huns, Yue Chi, Tocharians, Tibetans, Maura (India), and Java. Jesus (supposedly god) is omniscient. However, he does not know the Earth is a sphere.

Jesus believed the end of the world was going to occur while people in his audience were still alive.

He finds a few people having seizures (epilepsy) and some likely suffering from psychosis. He cures them by casting out demons and sending them into a herd of pigs. That story is just plain stupid but the content shows that Jesus as god did not know anything about epilepsy or mental illness, and believed in demons.

Jesus as god, supposedly omniscient, believed that Leprosy was caused by sin. He apparently never knew about bacteria and the germ theory of disease.

I am joking. I do not expect some Jewish bloke 2000 years ago to know what the Greeks already knew (the the world was a sphere.) I would not expect him to know about viruses, bacteria, parasitic worms, parasitic protista, trypanosomes, or manifestations of repetitive motor movements in seizures coming from firing neurons in the brain (not some silly demons.)

We must consider that Jesus came from an ignorant part of the world. Compared to the thinking educated Greeks, the Israelites were ignorant desert savages believing in superstitions and myths.

Lack of omniscience in the Bible shows that both God and Jesus were not gods.

Amhairghine

 

[Falvlun]

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Since a payment has been done how can God claim to be forgiving. If somebody owes you a right and he or a third party pays you can you justifiably claim to have forgiven your debtor?

Did Jesus punish himself to forgive humans in the context of him being God? Some Christians tell me if there is no punishment there is no justice, if I am wronged would I not be doing justice by simply forgiving?

When I compare this to God and forgiveness in Islam I see that He does not need to be paid anything and He forgives those who repent with sincerety. To me this fits the defination of forgiveness.

It seems to me Christianity makes not unforgiving to justify the 'significance of the cross' while undermining God's character of forgiveness.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

Blogger, very interesting question you have there. I have not run up against this one before.

I really don't think anyone as addressed the fundamental issue:
Why did Jesus need to die on the cross to "pay" for our sins? If the concept of forgiveness is to be taken at face value, then no payment should be required, except perhaps repentance from the one being forgiven.

To expand upon that a little bit, why couldn't an all powerful God forgive humanity without the torture and death of innocent things, including, ostesibly, his own son? Why does he need such a horrific catalyst to unlock his mercy?

 

[Falvlun]

I have a problem with this Biblical teaching because to lie in layman terms is to deliberately present false information with intent to deceive. In Islam God can never be deceived because he is the all-knowing. Does the Bible really teach that God can be lied to and such a God can actually deliver justice on Judgement Day?

You can lie to someone, and that someone can know that you are lying, no?

Say I stole money from my mom's purse. My mom saw me do it from the other room. When she asks me where the money in her purse is and I say "I don't know", I have just lied to her, even though she knows the true answer.

 

[Dunemeister]

What is the purpose of asking a child to do what he certainly cannot do. In order to make a child grow and mature dont we need to give them realistic challenges like doing better in school and not give them unrealistic challenges like to finish college at 12?

I've already answered this question. There are any number of reasons why God would give a law that was impossible to comply with or fulfill. Go back to my earlier post and actually read it.

If it is simply a sign and not comparison can it also be said that everything we do to and for each other is a sign of what God does that? We harm others unfairly, we cheat in dealings etc,

I'm really not sure what you are saying. In the Lord's Prayer, the Christian asks God to forgive us (the Christian community) AS we forgive others. The meaning of "as" is "in the same manner" and/or "to the same extent." There is a sense in which our own forgiveness depends on the fact that we forgive others their sins against us. I cannot claim to be a Christian while at the same time harbour bitterness and rancour against my neighbour. The sign of Christian conversion is a change of affection whereby her natural inclination is to love and forgive.