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Is God forgiving?

Heneni

Miss Independent
What is the purpose of asking a child to do what he certainly cannot do. In order to make a child grow and mature dont we need to give them realistic challenges like doing better in school and not give them unrealistic challenges like to finish college at 12?

If it is simply a sign and not comparison can it also be said that everything we do to and for each other is a sign of what God does that? We harm others unfairly, we cheat in dealings etc,

Well god certainly asks and requires his children to do exactly what they cannot do by themselves. If they could then they would get the glory. Its precisely because god asks us to do that which we cant, that makes us reliant on him to do it in and through us. Its important that we understand that god is the one that needs to do the transforming work in his people, because he said, we are HIS workmanship. And so he is the one at work in us and through us. Any effort of our own will only leave us feeling defeated, and so we should, because the only thing that can be left standing in the end, its gods works, which he wont destroy and gods people, who he recreated in christ jesus. The works of man and satan will be destroyed. Yes god asks us to do what we cant do, so that he can do the work, so that it has a gaurentee of surviving for eternity.

Heneni
 

slave2six

Substitious
so r u saying the concept of sin is a hoax?
It is a form of control that was invented by human beings. The entire idea is actually quite disgusting and leads to the whole eternity in Hell business.

I don't know why people have to throw God into the mix at all when discussing human behaviours. People are not basically good or basically bad. They are basically people. All behaviours and emotions are functions of the brain, as has handily been demonstrated, and the three possible remedies for bad behaviour are:

  1. Will Power
  2. Medication
  3. Surgery
in that order. Or do you think that it's just some strange anomaly that people take antidepressants and severely mentally ill people are prescribed medications? If these things were, as our forefathers believed, attributed to evil spirits then the remedy could not be a biological/medical one, could it?

I believe that Cardero is 100% correct. The evidence suggests that God is not a "Personal" being that has human attributes (e.g. being offended). But even if he is, he could not be so small minded as to create people who behave certain ways and then take offense at their behaviour!
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I'm really not sure what you are saying. In the Lord's Prayer, the Christian asks God to forgive us (the Christian community) AS we forgive others. The meaning of "as" is "in the same manner" and/or "to the same extent."

Isn't this exactly the point of the thread? You just said it yourself: the Christian asks God (in the Lord's prayer) to forgive us in the same manner (your own words) that we forgive others. Last time I checked, I didn't demand a sacrifice the last time I forgave someone...
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Well god certainly asks and requires his children to do exactly what they cannot do by themselves. If they could then they would get the glory. Its precisely because god asks us to do that which we cant, that makes us reliant on him to do it in and through us. Its important that we understand that god is the one that needs to do the transforming work in his people, because he said, we are HIS workmanship. And so he is the one at work in us and through us. Any effort of our own will only leave us feeling defeated, and so we should, because the only thing that can be left standing in the end, its gods works, which he wont destroy and gods people, who he recreated in christ jesus. The works of man and satan will be destroyed. Yes god asks us to do what we cant do, so that he can do the work, so that it has a gaurentee of surviving for eternity.

Heneni

:areyoucra

1. Why would an all-powerful being need glory? What exactly would "glory" mean to the Supreme Being of the Universe? Is he vain? Why would God begrudge someone glory who earned it?

2. If the whole point is for God to display his workmanship through us, then why didn't he just make us perfect to begin with?
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
I have a problem with this Biblical teaching because to lie in layman terms is to deliberately present false information with intent to deceive. In Islam God can never be deceived because he is the all-knowing. Does the Bible really teach that God can be lied to and such a God can actually deliver justice on Judgement Day?

In christianity GOD cannot be deceived either. The intent to deceive god was not forgiven in this case, the man did not actually succeed in deceiving god, but he wanted to. Now the reason he was struck dead in my opinion is because he was agnostic. Everybody else was selling their things and giving the proceeds to the apostels to distribute to the poor, but he sold his extra property and wanted to keep money for himself. I think it was because he was on the fence. He was not completely sure if god was real, and so just in case the rest of them were all fools, he kept some of the money in order not to loose to much if god pans out to not exist. He was taking a gamble. Peter told him, look you could have kept all the money but now that you have tried to have it both ways you are cursed! What he was saying is that the man was not forced to give anything in the first place, if he was not sure. But because he gave incase god was real and kept a little in case god was not...he was struck dead. Unbelief. That was the root of the problem and that is the only sin god cannot pardon.

Heneni
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
1. Why would an all-powerful being need glory? What exactly would "glory" mean to the Supreme Being of the Universe? Is he vain? Why would God begrudge someone glory who earned it?

He does not need it, he has it. God knows that he is the most glorious being in all of the universe and all of heaven and beyond. He does not need for us to bring him glory neither does he need for us to supress his glory. He delights in making himself known to us, and to reveal his glory for our delight. But some dont delight in god revealing his glory or his desire to be known, they want to surpress the god of the universe and make him go away. That of course is completely against gods sovereing plan which is: (as the bible describes it) gods ultimate purpose is to fill everything everywhere with his glory. The earth, creation, is only a reflection of his glory and isnt the full magnitude of it. Now god has purposed from the beginning to make a universe and gradually fill it with his glory. Now there are some folk who doesnt exactly want him to do that. And im thinking what idiot would want to stand infront of a damwall and try to stop god to do what he wants to do. The point is that you are either going to be a vessel designed and fit for the glory of god to flow through you and not consume you, or you are going to not be. And if you are suppressing gods glory now, he will simply have to make due around you to fill the whole of everything with his glory. If that means you have to 'up in flames'...then thats what will happpen. He made the universe, his plan is to gradually fill it with his glory and when that full wave of glory comes, in whatever form, wrath judgement or whatever, in the end, gods glory will flow everywhere. Now the glory can make some things glow radiant like the sun, bright and brilliant and the same glory can make other things burn with a sulphury blue colour depending on what it flows through.

2. If the whole point is for God to display his workmanship through us, then why didn't he just make us perfect to begin with?

Well then he wouldnt have to work. God delights in working.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Isn't this exactly the point of the thread? You just said it yourself: the Christian asks God (in the Lord's prayer) to forgive us in the same manner (your own words) that we forgive others. Last time I checked, I didn't demand a sacrifice the last time I forgave someone...

Just goes to show that you can push an analogy only so far.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Since forgiveness by cruxifiction is fundamental to Christianity, I would expect endless verses that emphasis this because salvation is significant. Can you please give us indisputable biblical verses that clearly say that the mission of Jesus was to die on the cross as a payment of sins.
It isn't "fundamental" to Xy. It may be fundamental to the doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement, but even that doesn't enjoy universal credence in Xy.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Does this story make any sense? Let us put it in terms that are more familiar. Joe Hovak builds a wonderful garden community. He finds a couple of plain, simple, not too bright people to live in the first model home. They are Adam Australopithecus and his wife Eve Australopithecus-Habilis.

Joe tells Adam and Eve that they may live in the model home rent-free. However, they must obey certain strange rules. There is a tree with apples that will extend life spans. However, they are forbidden to eat the apples. There is another tree with nucleotide fruit that expands intelligence and permits humans to inquire, learn, and get smart. However, Joe does not want them to eat this nucleotide fruit because Adam or Eve might get as smart as Joe Hovak. In addition, that would be a major embarrassment.

Joe is a gangster type. You know; he wears a black pinstripe suit, black shirt, and white tie. All are happy.

Then Eve starts having questions about life, love, and the lottery she gets very curious. Then a slick skinny philosopher with no legs or arms, tells her to eat the fruit of the Nucleotide Tree because it will make her as smart as Joe Scar face Hovak. She does, and gives some to Adam. Suddenly Adam and Eve are speaking real vocal language, writing differential equations on the oak tree, and measuring tectonic plate movement with markers placed on either side of the East African rift zone.

Joe is furious. He cannot believe the audacity of those two primates. That sin must be punished. Therefore, Joe plans to sock it to them. He has a son whom he fathers by a human virgin. Joe's purpose is to have his own son sacrificed brutally by other bad humans, Romans, to avenge the sin of seeking knowledge by Adam and Eve.

Joe's reasoning is that by killing his own son, Jay Suss, Adam's sin can be forgiven???? Sceptics ask, "how does killing one's own child avenge a wrong done to you by your neighbour?" The Lord acts in mysterious ways.

Well, Joe sends his son, Jay to Hell as extra punishment in place of Adam and Eve. Duh? However, Joe then brings Jay back to life and raises him from the tomb. Jay, then a talking stiff walking zombie, walks about Jerusalem scaring the bajeezus out of children.

Joe is happy. However, after a few drinks at the Badda Bing, Joe changes his mind. "I do not care if Jay Suss Hovak died in vain or not, the original sin verdict has been upheld. You all are still going to die and you still will sin if you seek knowledge.

So, all of that hoopla about the original sin of illegal inquiry and unauthorised thinking leading to human loss of immortality was a horrible horrible sin against the pride of God. God's solution of shagging a human girl to produce his only begotten son, Jay, for the sole purpose of sacrificing Jay Suss Hovak to atone for the terrible sin...did not work. Jay is tortured, crucified, buried, went to Hell and back, and all for nothing. The sin and penalty still stand. Joe Hovak (God) failed. Jay Suss' life was wasted. We are all back where we started when Eve sought knowledge.

What is lacking mate, is that the story is totally chaotic and insane. It is irrational and so silly it might be part of a Monty Python skit if not so linked to 6000 years of religious bigotry, millions of murders, oppression of women, justification of injustice, persecution of other religions, gay people, and those who show any compassion.

This story told to me by a Scottish Teacher when I was age 7 led me to a rapid conclusion that Christianity was bollocks and no such god could possibly exist. There may be some other god somewhere. But JHWY or Allah simply are self-contradictory if we believe these psychotic stories.

Amhairghine
This would be fine if the analysis of the story were not "bollocks," itself. The whole thing is a giant, floppy, straw man.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There are several falsehoods in the Bible making God look ignorant or a liar.

Satan took Jesus up on the Mount where they could see all of the nations of the world. You know the rest of the temptation. However, there is no mountain from which one can see all of the nations of the world unless the world if FLAT. One cannot see the Andean Empire, the Meso-American Empire, Japan, Korea, Champa, Hawaii, and New Zealand while also seeing Poland, Syria, Egypt, Scotland, and Parthia...then looking to the right and seeing the empire of the Huns, Yue Chi, Tocharians, Tibetans, Maura (India), and Java. Jesus (supposedly god) is omniscient. However, he does not know the Earth is a sphere.

Jesus believed the end of the world was going to occur while people in his audience were still alive.

He finds a few people having seizures (epilepsy) and some likely suffering from psychosis. He cures them by casting out demons and sending them into a herd of pigs. That story is just plain stupid but the content shows that Jesus as god did not know anything about epilepsy or mental illness, and believed in demons.

Jesus as god, supposedly omniscient, believed that Leprosy was caused by sin. He apparently never knew about bacteria and the germ theory of disease.

I am joking. I do not expect some Jewish bloke 2000 years ago to know what the Greeks already knew (the the world was a sphere.) I would not expect him to know about viruses, bacteria, parasitic worms, parasitic protista, trypanosomes, or manifestations of repetitive motor movements in seizures coming from firing neurons in the brain (not some silly demons.)

We must consider that Jesus came from an ignorant part of the world. Compared to the thinking educated Greeks, the Israelites were ignorant desert savages believing in superstitions and myths.

Lack of omniscience in the Bible shows that both God and Jesus were not gods.

Amhairghine
Lack of omniscience in the Bible is only important for the person who
a) takes the Bible literalistically (which is wrong)
b) believes in sola scriptura

Lack of omniscience in the Bible only proves that the human writers were not omniscient.:facepalm:
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Blogger, very interesting question you have there. I have not run up against this one before.

I really don't think anyone as addressed the fundamental issue:
Why did Jesus need to die on the cross to "pay" for our sins? If the concept of forgiveness is to be taken at face value, then no payment should be required, except perhaps repentance from the one being forgiven.

To expand upon that a little bit, why couldn't an all powerful God forgive humanity without the torture and death of innocent things, including, ostesibly, his own son? Why does he need such a horrific catalyst to unlock his mercy?
He didn't.
He doesn't.
Substitutionary Atonement is silly.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Isn't this exactly the point of the thread? You just said it yourself: the Christian asks God (in the Lord's prayer) to forgive us in the same manner (your own words) that we forgive others. Last time I checked, I didn't demand a sacrifice the last time I forgave someone...
Neither does God.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Heneni, this part of your post:
He does not need it, he has it. God knows that he is the most glorious being in all of the universe and all of heaven and beyond. He does not need for us to bring him glory neither does he need for us to supress his glory.

contradicts the second part of your post:

He delights in making himself known to us, and to reveal his glory for our delight. But some dont delight in god revealing his glory or his desire to be known, they want to surpress the god of the universe and make him go away. That of course is completely against gods sovereing plan which is: (as the bible describes it) gods ultimate purpose is to fill everything everywhere with his glory. The earth, creation, is only a reflection of his glory and isnt the full magnitude of it. Now god has purposed from the beginning to make a universe and gradually fill it with his glory.

You first claim that God is the most glorious being in all of the universe, and he knows it, and as such, we neither add to that glory or subtract from it. Then you claim that God actually does need us to acknowledge his glory (btw, Why would he need anything or anyone to do that if he already knows without a shadow of doubt that he is indeed the most glorious being ever?), and that our resistence to acknowledging his glory must be stamped out in order for his glory to fill the universe.

Either God is the most glorious being in the universe and we don't add or subtract from it, or we do add or subtract from it and God needs to make sure we are only adding to it. Which one is it?

Well then he wouldnt have to work. God delights in working.
I delight in working, too, but I don't intentionally do a poor job just so I get to do it again.

Dunemeister said:
Just goes to show that you can push an analogy only so far.
Ok... I didn't realize this was necessarily an analogy, but theology: It is the prayer Jesus taught Christians to say, so I figured it was literal.

Either way, I don't understand why we, with all our petty selfishness and numerous vendettas, can find it in our hearts to forgive someone, with perhaps the only requirement of sincere apology, and God, in all his supposed goodness and glory, can not find it within his bountiful love, to forgive us our trespasses that (at least according to Heneni and others) we had no chance of not committing, without some sort of bloody sacrifice of an innocent animal or human.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
He didn't.
He doesn't.
Substitutionary Atonement is silly.

I agree that the concept of substitutionary atonement is not only silly, but a bit morally repugnant. It's like the whole concept of a whipping boy: making innocents suffer for the misdeeds of others just doesn't sound very just and good.

That said, I believe the majority of Christians ascribe to this view in one way or the other.
In the OT, God demanded the sacrifice of animals to atone for past wrongs, and there is very detailed instructions of the correct way in which to do this. Then Jesus comes with a new covenant, where he becomes the final and ultimate sacrifice for God, taking the sin of humanity down to the grave and abolishing its power.

I understand that this is a fundamental concept within most Christian denomonitions, but you yourself are proof that it is not universal. How do you explain the meaning of OT sacrifices, and what do you think was the purpose, if any, of the death of Jesus?

sojourner said:
Neither does God [demand a sacrifice when he forgives someone].
My words in the brackets for clarity.

Most Christians would agree that God no longer demands a sacrifice, as Jesus was the final and perfect sacrifice.

sojourner said:
God did. We screwed it up.
*shrug* My response was directed at Heneni, who does apparently hold the view that God purposefully created us faulty. It isn't really relavent to the debate, either way, I suppose.

Just out of curiousity, do you ascribe to the concept of original sin (ie, Adam and Eve sinned, so all humanity was cursed with inborn sin)?
 

Blogger

Member
The meaning of "as" is "in the same manner" and/or "to the same extent." There is a sense in which our own forgiveness depends on the fact that we forgive others their sins against us. I cannot claim to be a Christian while at the same time harbour bitterness and rancour against my neighbour. The sign of Christian conversion is a change of affection whereby her natural inclination is to love and forgive.

'In the same manner'- in the manner we forgive we do not punish anyone neither can we claim to have forgiven after being paid. Christianity clears says 'Jesus paid in full' by dying on the cross so I do not see similarity.

'to the same exrent'- I also have problems with this. We certainly wrong God more than we harm ourselves. Even when we wrong ourselves we have actually wronged God because the wronged one is God's creation so comparing extent is also incoprehensible. WEhn we wrong God we wrong the creator, when we wrong a human being we are wronging the created, how can wronging the creator and created be considered 'to the same extent'?
 

Blogger

Member
If they could then they would get the glory. Heneni

I will give you one example. Muslims are commanded to fast and end of the day they glorify God and not themselves. Muslims literally consider themselves slaves of God who have obligation to do as He commands.

How does a slave get glory for obeying the master? If there is obedience doesnt tha master get all the glory?
 

Blogger

Member
Isn't this exactly the point of the thread? You just said it yourself: the Christian asks God (in the Lord's prayer) to forgive us in the same manner (your own words) that we forgive others. Last time I checked, I didn't demand a sacrifice the last time I forgave someone...

That is exactly what I am saying :clap
 

Michael Turner

espresso connoisseur
Hi Blogger,

Sorry it has taken me a couple days to get back to the board. This is a fascinating thread, however, and I thank you for bringing it up.

That said, I'm having difficulty understanding where you are coming from. You seem to have a problem with the concept of God forgiving sinners yet still requiring a price to be paid for sin itself. However, when you contrast by describing Islam, you speak of Allah who only requires repentance. To this I would ask if he would forgive if you do not repent? Should the answer be "no" (and I'm assuming that it is), I would think that there is indeed a price to be paid. From there I must ask to what degree must you repent? A little? A lot? Perfectly? For a day? For 20 years? For a lifetime?

Basically, how great is the price that your religion demands? In your answer I hope to get a better idea of just how seriously Allah takes sin.
 
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