Is God good? Is God loving?

[Lain]

So, for you a child who painfully dies of cancer, or is shot by an SS officer exercising shooting skills on moving objects, is serving God's providence?

Ciao

- viole

Yes. The Lord in Job, in my opinion, makes this same point, and in the Psalms, and elsewhere. He gave Canaan to Israel which killed their children so that the children of Israel may prosper, He struck Egypt and killed their first-born to demonstrate His power, He intricately runs the ecosystem feeding animals to another, even saying that He hunts the prey of the lions for the lion cubs, in Providence. When I think of the interactions and events of an individuals life, the bad and the good, I can sometimes glimpse what He is doing there, and it is quite wonderful to me to behold.

 

[viole]

There may very well be answers to that. Due to how I define evil (privation of good) it is kind of inconceivable to call God's Persons or acts evil. Like the LPT it is one philosophical idea that goes over my head, just like when people call Him "unjust," which to me is a quite absurd thing to say, as if He is in debt to something He made.

Well, that is relative. I could call Good the privation of Evil, and we would be on square one, wouldn't we?

So, maybe good and evil are just dummy words without (question begging) meaning. Or do you think they have an eternal and platonic existence that does not depend on God's whim?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Yes. The Lord in Job, in my opinion, makes this same point, and in the Psalms, and elsewhere. He gave Canaan to Israel which killed their children so that the children of Israel may prosper, He struck Egypt and killed their first-born to demonstrate His power, He intricately runs the ecosystem feeding animals to another, even saying that He hunts the prey of the lions for the lion cubs, in Providence. When I think of the interactions and events of an individuals life, the bad and the good, I can sometimes glimpse what He is doing there, and it is quite wonderful to me to behold.

So, if I buy a gun today, and I shoot the first kid I see, that is an ultimate good?

Actually, according to what you say, evil cannot possibly exist, right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

Well, that is relative. I could call Good the privation of Evil, and we would be on square one, wouldn't we?

So, maybe good and evil are just dummy words without (question begging) meaning. Or do you think they have an eternal and platonic existence that does not depend on God's whim?

Ciao

- viole

To me they are fundamentally unequal since "good" denotes some kind of desirableness very often to me, and so when I contemplate for instance my own existence I see it as desirable, and my non-existence to be bad. Then when one observes the use of good and evil in language it matches up to privation of good (for what evil is) and not good being the privation of evil, for example a "bad hammer" is one that lacks the qualities to be an effective one.

Good to me is ultimately then existence. As for not depending on God, God simply is that, being the Eternally Existent One.

 

[Lain]

So, if I buy a gun today, and I shoot the first kid I see, that is an ultimate good?

Actually, according to what you say, evil cannot possibly exist, right?

Ciao

- viole

Evil has no positive existence, which is why St. Julian of Norwich when shown all creation say only good in it, for she was shown it in a more divine way. We can experience gaps though, or know that there are these gaps.

And yes if you did that ultimately it would simply serve God's Providence. It's not like (in my opinion of course) He made you not knowing that this would be done.

 

[viole]

To me they are fundamentally unequal since "good" denotes some kind of desirableness very often to me, and so when I contemplate for instance my own existence I see it as desirable, and my non-existence to be bad. Then when one observes the use of good and evil in language it matches up to privation of good (for what evil is) and not good being the privation of evil, for example a "bad hammer" is one that lacks the qualities to be an effective one.

Good to me is ultimately then existence. As for not depending on God, God simply is that, being the Eternally Existent One.

Well, your conception was a sequence of events that could have led, a-priori, to one of the members of the huge set of your possible siblings with a much higher probability. A day before. One degree more in the room. A different tilting ejection angle. A different initial momentum. Etc. And you would not exist, only one of your potential siblings would.

So, what gives you the "arrogance" to claim that good is that you exist? What prevents the almost infinite set of alternative siblings that will never occur, to claim instead that it was evil, apart from the obvious fact that only alive things can claim something?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

Well, your conception was a sequence of events that could have led, a-priori, to one of the members of the huge set of your possible siblings with a much higher probability. A day before. One degree more in the room. A different tilting ejection angle. A different initial momentum. Etc. And you would not exist, only one of your potential siblings.

So, what gives you the "arrogance" to claim that good is that you exist? What prevents the almost infinite set of alternative siblings that will never occur, to claim instead that it was evil, apart from the obvious fact that only alive things can claim something?

Ciao

- viole

I do not claim that it is evil that others do not exist, and good is only said of things which exist to me.

As for what gives me the arrogance to claim it, I simply can not help but claim it, it's in my nature. I have attempted to do otherwise and asked others to do otherwise, considering their own existence and purely try to conceive and will it being evil, and I can not. It is one of the few things that I might call "impossible." I was also informed that even such a question proves that good is existence, for the only reason anyone tries it is in service of truth, another word for good from a different angle.

 

[viole]

Evil has no positive existence, which is why St. Julian of Norwich when shown all creation say only good in it, for she was shown it in a more divine way. We can experience gaps though, or know that there are these gaps.

And yes if you did that ultimately it would simply serve God's Providence. It's not like (in my opinion of course) He made you not knowing that this would be done.

So, do we agree that there is no evil, and everything is God's providence? I have to admit that this is, in principle, the best solution of the theodicy problem. Maybe the only one possible, logically speaking. However, I was in Rome yesterday, visiting my husband's family, and your pope complained about something at the Angelus. Why did he do that? Why does he complain at all? Even abortion is God's providence, for Thor's sake!

And what good can come from me killing a child? Or from an SS officer throwing her in the air and see if he can shoot her before she touches ground? Or from kids losing their sights because of bacteria. Or losing their life because of mosquitos, wars, famine, cancer, genetic diseases, etc. What good can come from a poor clueless Maya priest, who believes that in order to make it rain, or appease some volcanoes, he needs to rip off the heart out of some children's chest?

How can we sell that out to someone else who has not bought in your faith for some other a-priori reasons?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I do not claim that it is evil that others do not exist, and good is only said of things which exist to me.

As for what gives me the arrogance to claim it, I simply can not help but claim it, it's in my nature. I have attempted to do otherwise and asked others to do otherwise, considering their own existence and purely try to conceive and will it being evil, and I can not. It is one of the few things that I might call "impossible." I was also informed that even such a question proves that good is existence, for the only reason anyone tries it is in service of truth, another word for good from a different angle.

Since the only logical conclusion is that you do not believe that evil exists, that comes without saying.

Incidentally, you must also believe that aborting a fertilised egg, is God's providence, too. Right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Koldo]

I didnt say "being contingent". I said "contingent being".

And the sentence you made above is not "modal logic". It is an attempt in philosophy.



That is the definition of a contingent being. And that is not "my thought", it is definition.

Please, do read more prior to attempt at debunking people.

Cheers.

That's not the proper definition for anything 'contingent' in modal logic though, be it a being or whatever. But you are free to use whatever definitions you prefer.

 

[Koldo]

Something not maintained by God or just not maintained in general?

For the latter, my house is a mess and I need to clean it, I didn't maintain it well.

For the former, nothing really I'd think. It all falls under God's Providence to me and serves His own end, which is by definition good. It's not like He let something slip by that He didn't see from eternity or is beyond His control.

Out of curiosity, when were you taught to think like this?

 

[Lain]

Since the only logical conclusion is that you do not believe that evil exists, that comes without saying.

Incidentally, you must also believe that aborting a fertilised egg, is God's providence, too. Right?

Ciao

- viole

Of course. As one old commentary says, "the Great Lord of life and death cuts off half of the human race before they are even born." His number might be off but you get the point (early-to-mid 19th century data).

 

[viole]

Of course. As one old commentary says, "the Great Lord of life and death cuts off half of the human race before they are even born." His number might be off but you get the point (early-to-mid 19th century data).

Must be more than that. Excluding global waterboarding for the moment.

So, Do you explicitly agree that abortion, you know like the one we have in Scandinavia to eradicate Down syndrome and other genetic diseases, is God's providence?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

So, do we agree that there is no evil, and everything is God's providence? I have to admit that this is, in principle, the best solution of the theodicy problem. Maybe the only one possible, logically speaking. However, I was in Rome yesterday, visiting my husband's family, and your pope complained about something at the Angelus. Why did he do that? Why does he complain at all? Even abortion is God's providence, for Thor's sake!

And what good can come from me killing a child? Or from an SS officer throwing her in the air and see if he can shoot her before she touches ground? Or from kids losing their sights because of bacteria. Or losing their life because of mosquitos, wars, famine, cancer, genetic diseases, etc. What good can come from a poor clueless Maya priest, who believes that in order to make it rain, or appease some volcanoes, he needs to rip off the heart out of some children's chest?

How can we sell that out to someone else who has not bought in your faith for some other a-priori reasons?

Ciao

- viole

He complains because evil is the privation of good, and rational beings can choose to... private goods? That sounds weird, not sure if it's a verb, but you may get the point. Due to our will and reason we are blamed for choosing improperly rather than properly (since the will always is inherently seeking good as it was made by God, the end of all created things, so you either are choosing towards that in your own way or in the way He wants, and the former is blamed for it as it could do otherwise, the latter is divinized).

As for what good comes from particular instances of evil, I do not know every instance, only a few.

As to how to sell it, I don't sell the faith, if some do not accept God as Sovereign it's a rather personal problem. I might pray and fast for them but it is God who can convert.

 

[Lain]

Must be more than that. Excluding global waterboarding for the moment.

So, Do you explicitly agree that abortion, is God's providence?

Ciao

- viole

Yes, by retraction of the goof of life (like a miscarriage) or permission (like when He permits an elective abortion). Giving good, removing good, permitting good to be removed, all of this falls under "Providence," how He runs the Universe.

 

[Lain]

Out of curiosity, when were you taught to think like this?

I wasn't.

 

[viole]

He complains because evil is the privation of good, and rational beings can choose to... private goods? That sounds weird, not sure if it's a verb, but you may get the point. Due to our will and reason we are blamed for choosing improperly rather than properly (since the will always is inherently seeking good as it was made by God, the end of all created things, so you either are choosing towards that in your own way or in the way He wants, and the former is blamed for it as it could do otherwise, the latter is divinized).

As for what good comes from particular instances of evil, I do not know every instance, only a few.

As to how to sell it, I don't sell the faith, if some do not accept God as Sovereign it's a rather personal problem. I might pray and fast for them but it is God who can convert.

But there is no evil. Everything is God's provision. Or are you revising your previous statement?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

But there is no evil. Everything is God's provision. Or are you revising your previous statement?

Ciao

- viole

Evil has no positive existence is my statement, and all things are under Providence. Do you see a contradiction between that and goods being removed, that is, brought into non-being? It means that what's left is good.

 

[viole]

Yes, by retraction of the goof of life (like a miscarriage) or permission (like when He permits an elective abortion). Giving good, removing good, permitting good to be removed, all of this falls under "Providence," how He runs the Universe.

So, there is no problem if women abort. in Scandinavia it is common practice to abort, even if we want the child, if it has been screened for genetic diseases. Like Down syndrome. That is the main reason places like Iceland are virtually Down syndrome free today.

It is refreshing that Catholics agree with that, after all.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

So, there is no problem if women abort. in Scandinavia it is common practice to abort, even if we want the child, if it has been screened for genetic diseases. Like Down syndrome. That is the main reason places like Iceland are virtually Down syndrome free today.

It is refreshing that Catholics agree with that, after all.

Ciao

- viole

"No problem" in that it is providential, yes. But as I said with permission He also attaches blame to it, so that is the sense in which a problem exists.