Is God good? Is God loving?

[viole]

You have to use context I believe. Gods desires are that humans generally align with what is the best action to take overall FOR MANKIND not for God. No you cannot deviate from Gods will. However the will of God must be contextually different from the will of man. Gods will sustains all things. Even your desire to deviate from what God has deemed is good action for humans to take. Your action then gives definition to Gods will. How can God after all deem what is good for man if man could never deviate from that good? Some were made for the day of destruction so says scripture. I think many theists do not understand what it means to be God.

Again, my discussion is with another Christian who might not believe the same as you. I learned you Christians disagree on a scale that will seriously put in doubt your claims that you have a personal relationship with Jesus. Unless you only speak about baseball or the weather, during those personal relationships with the Almighty, of course. And as long as the weather does not involve global warming, of course.

So, what can I do for you?

For starters, answer me that: will Judah go to Hell?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

Now you are climbing mirrors, as they say in Rome. Bottom line is very simple: free will or not, I cannot possibly surprise God, or derail His plan. Whatever I do, like killing the first child I see, is part of His providence, as you admitted a few posts ago.

Yes, but how does that square with your previous claim that me killing the first child I see, is still God's providence? And why do I have to go to hell, since what I did was not evil (there is no evil), and was just part of God's providence?

Will Judah go to Hell? Or will he not, by simply doing what he was supposed to do, according to God's master plan? Can you have a situation in which Judah will go to Heaven, but Jesus will simply escape execution on account of the lack of traitors, and could not therefore have started that belief of yours, including all the goodies it claims to have produced?

I respect everyone I post to. If I did not, I would not waste my time to tip more than one letter to them. However, that respect will include some honesty/brutality sometimes. I do not, in principle, sugar goat what I think with people who I consider intelligent adults. And I expect the same treatment from them.

Ciao

- viole

I see the issue now, I apologize for not making the matter clearer as I was saying it. I'll start from the top of the matter:

In the case of you killing someone both of these things are true:

1) You willed to kill someone.
2) God willed that you kill someone.

But this is not true: God willed that He not will that you kill someone.
But this also is: God commanded you to not kill someone.

This way He does not break His own Law, but you did, so that in bringing about this event you both "did different things," since acts are knowing choices.

Blame/damnation/whatnot, is about the actions and intentions of agents. God commands that you do not do that, God does not command that He should not will you to do this. Those are separate things. In the Scripture it says "you intended it for evil but God intended it for good," both of you (you and God) have responsibility for this event but moral blame only attaches to those who willfully break God's Law to me, and God does not break His own Law.

This is why a thing can be morally blameworthy while entirely in Providence to me.

Again a simple restatement: you and God both will an event, but are performing different intentional actions in doing it, you of breaking His Law (which He calls wrongdoing and has made these things have particular consequences) and He of willfully doing good. The reason being is that there are two different willings going on here for two different things behind "doing" the same event.

This is the sort of divine determinism I am familiar with. I am not sure if I made the central idea clear though still, but through what has been written you might see the point.

 

[setarcos]

will Judah go to Hell?

How the heck am I supposed to know if Judah will go to hell? I'm not God. I think the book of Job answered the question
of presupposing what God would and would not do based on some formulaic values.

 

[setarcos]

So, what can I do for you?

I'm not sure? What would you like to do for me? Educate me perhaps? I'm open to learn about my cognitive dissonance. I actually do believe that one must have that to be a proper member of the human species.
So...do YOU believe Judah will go to hell?

 

[setarcos]

I learned you Christians disagree on a scale that will seriously put in doubt your claims that you have a personal relationship with Jesus.

By the way....personal relationship means just that, personal. As in each individual as an individual, not a collective.

 

[viole]

Ahh, I see. Well I agree somewhat. What is good and what is evil is generally relegated to each ones capacity to fulfill a particular outcome I think. Labels of actions and results of those actions. However, that something HAS been labeled testifies to the fact of that somethings existence as labeled does it not? Since those labels are given to actions that have the potential for fulfillment in reality and have been fulfilled at times definitionally.

I don't know what you mean. If I rate chocolate vastly preferable to dog's crap, do you think that the reason is that because there is a God giving me that sense of taste? If not, why would I need a God to tell me that protecting kids is better than burning them alive for fun?

And if the conclusion would be that I really need a God, what makes you think that a God who promoted slavery, raped victims to marry their rapists, promoted genocide, the killing of women and children, including the cutting of pregnant women apart, dashing kids against walls, and all that.... would be a serious candidate as the source of my morality?

Is He for yours?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I see the issue now, I apologize for not making the matter clearer as I was saying it. I'll start from the top of the matter:

In the case of you killing someone both of these things are true:

1) You willed to kill someone.
2) God willed that you kill someone.

But this is not true: God willed that He not will that you kill someone.
But this also is: God commanded you to not kill someone.

This way He does not break His own Law, but you did, so that in bringing about this event you both "did different things," since acts are knowing choices.

Blame/damnation/whatnot, is about the actions and intentions of agents. God commands that you do not do that, God does not command that He should not will you to do this. Those are separate things. In the Scripture it says "you intended it for evil but God intended it for good," both of you (you and God) have responsibility for this event but moral blame only attaches to those who willfully break God's Law to me, and God does not break His own Law.

This is why a thing can be morally blameworthy while entirely in Providence to me.

Again a simple restatement: you and God both will an event, but are performing different intentional actions in doing it, you of breaking His Law (which He calls wrongdoing and has made these things have particular consequences) and He of willfully doing good. The reason being is that there are two different willings going on here for two different things behind "doing" the same event.

This is the sort of divine determinism I am familiar with. I am not sure if I made the central idea clear though still, but through what has been written you might see the point.

So, it is not the case that God's providence is actualised, right? I am sorry to insist on that, but wether God's providence is actualised or not is a binary value. Either is was, or it was not.

So, if I shoot a lovely child in the brain, I went against God's providence. Please confirm that I did not, if you disagree, and then we proceed from there.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

So, it is not the case that God's providence is actualised, right? I am sorry to insist on that, but wether God's providence is actualised or not is a binary value. Either is was, or it was not.

So, if I shoot a lovely child in the brain, I went against God's providence. Please confirm that I did not, if you disagree, and then we proceed from there.

Ciao

- viole

I do not disagree at all, you did not go against Providence as no one can. I am simply explaining my reasoning as to why some actions get moral blame in the theater of Providence and others do not.

 

[viole]

How the heck am I supposed to know if Judah will go to hell? I'm not God. I think the book of Job answered the question
of presupposing what God would and would not do based on some formulaic values.

I am an atheist who has no problem with gay marriage, abortion, even eugenics abortion, euthanasia, and all that. Will I go to heaven, or is that just God's opinion?
So, the book of Job answered the question. Good. So, what is it? Do you know it, or do you not understand what your own bible says?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I do not disagree at all, you did not go against Providence as no one can. I am simply explaining my reasoning as to why some actions get moral blame in the theater of Providence and others do not.

Cool, theatres are good. Some like Shakespeare, some don't.
Shall I go to infinite torment or not? And if I do, or need to go through Purgatory, why is that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

By the way....personal relationship means just that, personal. As in each individual as an individual, not a collective.

OK, so what do you talk about with Him? Have you ever asked Him how old the Universe is, for instance? I am sure answers with a difference of six orders of magnitude can be easily differentiated them. So, why this is not settled yet in America?

What about evolution? Have you asked Him? I have a personal relationship with my husband too, and I have no problem asking him basic questions. My Christian friend claims God told her evolution is absolutely true, including common ancestors. Did He tell you the same? Or what about the death penalty?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

Cool, theatres are good. Some like Shakespeare, some don't.
Shall I go to infinite torment or not? And if I do, or need to go through Purgatory, why is that?

Ciao

- viole

I will speak in generalizations as I do not know the fate of any particular person, save the Saints.

People go to Hell for a knowing and willful breaking of God's Law. They go to purgatory essentially for debt payment, they made it, but still have dues owed and/or soul-muck to be cleaned from some failures.

 

[viole]

I'm not sure? What would you like to do for me? Educate me perhaps? I'm open to learn about my cognitive dissonance. I actually do believe that one must have that to be a proper member of the human species.
So...do YOU believe Judah will go to hell?

No. I do not believe in hell and heaven, obviously. But if I believed that stuff, it is obvious that Judah will go to heaven.
That is all Jesus plan. He knew He would need a sort of traitor in order to take the passover weekend off for our sins. Without Judah, Jesus would have probably disappeared into oblivion.

What do you think? Do you think he will go to hell? Why?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I will speak in generalizations as I do not know the fate of any particular person, save the Saints.

The Saints? What do you mean? Let's take one vanilla saint person usually normal people are fascinated with, like Mother Teresa. I always wondered. Do they wait up there playing their harp, until down here we declare them as saints? And then have Jesus and stuff congratulate with them that the pope down here promoted them? How does it work? And what does that entail? A sort of better heaven conditions?

People go to Hell for a knowing and willful breaking of God's Law. They go to purgatory essentially for debt payment, they made it, but still have dues owed and/or soul-muck to be cleaned from some failures.

But how did they break God's law? Since all they did was God's providence, how could have they broken God's law? Does God's providence allow for breaking God's laws? This really starts making no sense, sorry.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

The Saints? What do you mean? Let's take one vanilla saint person usually normal people like, like Mother Teresa I always wondered. Do they wait up there playing their harp, until down here we declare them as saints? And then have Jesus and stuff congratulate with them that the pope down here promoted them? How does it work?


But how did they break God's law? Since all they did was God's providence, how could have they broken God's law? This really starts making no sense,

Ciao

- viole

No, they go to Heaven and we recognize them as Saints later, maybe or maybe not. Most Saints aren't recognized at all, like the many monks who died in the desert or just average people that make it and are just unknown.

The distinction I gave earlier: for every act brought about two things are true,

(1) The person willed to do it.
(2) God willed that the person will to do it.

This also is true: God commanded them not to do it.
This also is true: God did not command Himself to not will them to will to do it.

Hence, "you intended it for evil but God intended it for good," the "it" there being any event to which He attaches blame.
He attaches blame to the breaking of His commandments, but He Himself breaks none of His commandments.

This is the form of divine determinism I am familiar with. As can be seen, it is both possible to break God's Law (His Commandments), while that is simultaneously part of His Providence.

 

[viole]

No, they go to Heaven and we recognize them as Saints later, maybe or maybe not. Most Saints aren't recognized at all, like the many monks who died in the desert or just average people that make it and are just unknown.

So, when people down here rejoice that Mother Teresa, or equivalent, have been promoted, they are basically deluding themselves? For all Catholics I Know already knew she will be in heaven, so why do do they expect further promotions, as if that meant anything? Why do they all applaud and celebrate the obvious? I am sorry, but from a purely logical point of view, their reactions looks totally silly.
Why don't they realise the obvious truths that what we decide down here has no value whatsoever, and that there is no officers circle in Heaven?

The distinction I gave earlier: for every act brought about two things are true,

(1) The person willed to do it.
(2) God willed that the person will to do it.

This also is true: God commanded them not to do it.
This also is true: God did not command Himself to not will them to will to do it.

Hence, "you intended it for evil but God intended it for good," the "it" there being any event to which He attaches blame.
He attaches blame to the breaking of His commandments, but He Himself breaks none of His commandments.

This is the form of divine determinism I am familiar with. As can be seen, it is both possible to break God's Law (His Commandments), while that is simultaneously part of His Providence.

Well, this is nice and deep. So, let's get back to my previous example of buying a gun and shoot the first kid I see.

Was it, or was it not, part of God's providence?

Simple yes/no question. Just a bit, the smallest amount of information above zero, So, what is it?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Lain]

So, when people down here rejoice that Mother Teresa, or equivalent, have been promoted, they are basically deluding themselves? Why don't they realise the obvious truths that what we decide down here has no value whatsoever, and that there is no officers circle in Heaven?


Well, this is nice and deep. So, let's get back to my previous example of buying a gun and shoot the first kid I see.

Was it, or was it not, part of God's providence?

Simple yes/no question. Just a bit, the minimal amount of information above zero, So, what is it?

Ciao

- viole

Canonization is not promotion to Sainthood, the person is recognized as in Heaven already which is how they got canonized (people pray to them before canonization and this begins the process, praying to them = you already believe they are there).

Yes.

 

[viole]

Canonization is not promotion to Sainthood, the person is recognized as in Heaven already which is how they got canonized (people pray to them before canonization and this begins the process, praying to them = you already believe they are there).

Yes.

So, where there any doubt they were not in Heaven? Are all those catholics so happy that Mother Teresa and Father Pio are in heaven because the pope, or any canonisation process say so? Where they worried that they will just rot in Hell? But why? If they rotted in Hell, that would be God's providence. And they should have been happy with that, too. If not, why not?

Under the assumption that God decides what the best is, that makes no sense, again. Any display of approval would be tautologically obvious, and therefore useless.

BTW. How could anyone be in Hell, if all they did was God's providence?

Ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I found peace when I finally abandoned the Gods, otherwise I was in a cloud of doubts.
You have to decide the issue between two of you.
You have (posted) and so have others. The problem is that you do not provide any evidence.
And Abdul Baha gifted us the person and life of Shoghi. Father, son and grandson. Shoghi again, is the objective proof. Proof of what?

I see it is proof that all that was offered by past Messengers and in this day what was offered by the Bab and Baha'u'llah is the elixer required by all humanity.

The proof is in our ability to implement those teachings in our own lives.

I watched a lot of Untold Stories the last few weeks, a lot are on India and the issues faced by many. One of the greatest proofs of Baha’u’llah to me is the ability to change hearts away from the Caste System and allow a global vision free of predudices.

One sadest show I watched was those with disabilities setting up meetings so they can meet a partner, finding a good match then one rejecting another because she was a lower caste! So very sad, especially as they face discrimination because of their disabilities.

Then there are the polluted rivers and towns because of mining. There is a lot the Message of Baha’u’llah could do in India, you should look up the Baha'i and see what they are tying to do about these issues.

No.matter what, I wish you all the best and a happy future.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anything new in the message other than that he himself is a messenger sent by Allah? That is circular reasoning. What he says about himself cannot be the proof. What he said is no proof of existence of Allah.

What Baha'u'llah has offered becomes the highest standard we can aspire to in this age.

Baha'u'llah said this is a great objective evidence, though is is easier to see it in hindsight, than it is to see the potential.

So once the words were uttered that the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens, that becomes a goal for humanity, receptive hearts will already long for this to be so. As soon as it was said, that in this age women share equality with men, that thought permeated the human mind and became a goal to be achieved, Etc, Etc etc.

That is why the holy books say God gives a new heaven and a new earth and makes all things new. The teachings and the Law and our ability to embrace it.

Every word they utter from God is the creative force of our potential. This would be a big explanation, I will put one smaller quote under a spoiler.

Spoiler: Creative Word

Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God is endowed with such potency as can instill new life into every human frame, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth. All the wondrous works ye behold in this world have been manifested through the operation of His supreme and most exalted Will, His wondrous and inflexible Purpose. Through the mere revelation of the word “Fashioner,” issuing forth from His lips and proclaiming His attribute to mankind, such power is 142 released as can generate, through successive ages, all the manifold arts which the hands of man can produce. This, verily, is a certain truth. No sooner is this resplendent word uttered, than its animating energies, stirring within all created things, give birth to the means and instruments whereby such arts can be produced and perfected. All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days to come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have never heard before. Thus hath it been decreed in the Tablets of God, and none can comprehend it except them whose sight is sharp. In like manner, the moment the word expressing My attribute “The Omniscient” issueth forth from My mouth, every created thing will, according to its capacity and limitations, be invested with the power to unfold the knowledge of the most marvelous sciences, and will be empowered to manifest them in the course of time at the bidding of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Knowing. Know thou of a certainty that the Revelation of every other Name is accompanied by a similar manifestation of Divine power. Every single letter proceeding out of the mouth of God is indeed a mother letter, and every word uttered by Him Who is the Well Spring of Divine Revelation is a mother word, and His Tablet a Mother Tablet. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth.

Regards Tony