Is God Omniscient as people say?

[Axe Elf]

What is your definition of Predestination mean to you ?

Ultimately, it means nothing more than that God created the universe, in light of the recognition that space and time are but two manifestations of the same thing (spacetime). It means that every moment in time was structured just as deliberately as every millimeter in space. It means that the future is just as fixed as the past--those of us who are trapped in the forward linear movement of time just can't see ahead beyond the present.

If you need something more concise, I will stipulate to the Google definition: "(as a doctrine in Christian theology) the divine foreordaining of all that will happen."

 

[Faithofchristian]

Ultimately, it means nothing more than that God created the universe, in light of the recognition that space and time are but two manifestations of the same thing (spacetime). It means that every moment in time was structured just as deliberately as every millimeter in space. It means that the future is just as fixed as the past--those of us who are trapped in the forward linear movement of time just can't see ahead beyond the present.

If you need something more concise, I will stipulate to the Google definition: "(as a doctrine in Christian theology) the divine foreordaining of all that will happen."

Well seeing I do not follow nor go by
Christian theology. So that will not work.

I know this might go over your head.

But Predestination, means That God has Predestinated his elect from the first earth age to be here in this second earth age.

The first Earth age is where the dinosaurs bones came from. That now we are in the second phrase of Earth's history age.

 

[Axe Elf]

Well seeing I do not follow nor go by
Christian theology. So that will not work.

I know this might go over your head.

But Predestination, means That God has Predestinated his elect from the first earth age to be here in this second earth age.

The first Earth age is where the dinosaurs bones came from. That now we are in the second phrase of Earth's history age.

lol

I'm sorry, I didn't realize your limitations before.

I'll stop now.

 

[Ponder This]

The problem that you are encountering, though, is that you keep insisting that there is a logical conundrum if someone were to know the future, and there is not.

First of all, no one EVER knows the future, so we can't say for sure WHAT would happen if someone did--but there is certainly no logical reason why they could not. And there is certainly no logical reason to conclude that they could do anything other than that which they know is going to happen, even if they did. It's almost like you're confusing the actors with the Director.

You apparently misread the post you quoted, though, because here you say that I'm suggesting the Director is not in control of the movie, when I plainly said, "and what's more, the Director is responsible for everything that happens at every individual moment."

Apologies. When you said 'responsible' I assumed you meant that because the Director made the movie in the first place, it followed that he was 'responsible' for the movie and everything in it (despite not being able to change the movie).

However, what I said still stands. Anyone who knows the future would either be in a situation of not having control, or would have the agency to change it. Since you seem to be suggesting that the Director has the control necessary to change the movie, it means that either the future is not known or that he does not care to change it.

 

[Axe Elf]

However, what I said still stands. Anyone who knows the future would either be in a situation of not having control, or would have the agency to change it. Since you seem to be suggesting that the Director has the control necessary to change the movie, it means that either the future is not known or that he does not care to change it.

And where is the logical conundrum in that? Even if God knows the future, why would God care to change what He created to be the best possible universe in the first place? There is no contradiction in terms here that would create the kind of logical paradox that you're suggesting.

Even your insistence on the idea that the future could be changed shows that you're still suffering from trying to separate the idea of "time" from the idea of "space" as if they were independent from each other. You want to consider time to be fixed only in the past, while remaining fluid and indeterminate in the future, but that's just an artifact of your inability to see forward in time. If you could, you would see that the future is just as fixed and unchanging as the past.

Let me try another analogy.

Suppose that I, playing the part of God, were to fashion a long pole out of wood, a pole that I call "SPACETIME," and lay it down horizontally on its side. I label the left side of the pole "PAST" and the right side of the pole "FUTURE." There is an ant marching at a constant pace from the left side of the pole to the right side, and the ant's name is "PRESENT." The ant knows things about the surface of the pole from where he started in the PAST all the way up to the point on the pole that he has reached, but he knows nothing about the surface he will be traversing from just a few millimeters in front of him all the way forward to the FUTURE.

But that doesn't mean that the right side of the pole is fluid and indeterminate--the right side of the pole is already fashioned. It will not change, even if I TOLD the ant about the FUTURE. Simply knowing what the other end of the pole is like would not enable the ant to alter it in any way. So having KNOWLEDGE of the future does not entail the power to change it, nor does it entail any logical conundrum.

Also, while I have the power to cut off the right side and replace it with something different--why would I? I already made the pole just the way I wanted it. So even having the POWER to change the FUTURE entails no necessity to change it, nor any resultant logical conundrum.

 

[Ponder This]

Feeling sorry can certainly be a consequences of something you regret doing, but only because what you did was a mistake. If what you did was not a mistake why feel sorry for it?

Because you are doing something that you don't want to do, but it's still the right thing to do. Is that what's happening with Saul? I don't know, but the point is that it is possible to have regrets over things where you didn't make a mistake. Speculatively speaking, maybe God saw a possible future for Saul, but Saul chose the regrettable path.

Speculating on Genesis 6:6, God regrets making man because man is filled with evil intentions. Was it a mistake on God's part to make man? Maybe it was. Or maybe man didn't have to choose evil.

Not if the results you were expecting from the punishment come true, OR if you knew this was the best way to eventually get these results.

But wouldn't it have been better if you didn't have to punish your child? At the very least, don't you experience disappointment?

Another example, you are a soldier in the army when you are called to go fight for your country. You know that the right thing to do is to go fight for your country. You walk into your house one last time before you depart and first thing you say to your wife is, "I'm sorry, but I have to go fight in this war." Maybe you can argue the war is a mistake; it should never have happened. But, this doesn't mean the soldier made a mistake. The soldier knows what could've been if he wasn't called to fight.

So I don't think regret necessitates a mistake on the part of the one experiencing regret.

 

[Ponder This]

Nope just the opposite, God does not look at things as we do.

We humans only can see what is happening to a person from the outside.

But where did the motive have it's start, the motive to do good or bad started in a person heart.
Once it's fully conceived in a person heart, then it comes to be seen on the outside.

We humans will say, because a person has a bad thought in their heart, doesn't mean a thing, But with God they already acted on it.
Look at those who killed many kids in the schools, The thought first started in their heart, then it became a reality.

But with God search the heart and saw the bad intention, already committed that bad intention in their heart. Before it even became a reality.
So with God searching the heart, they are already found guilty.
But with humans, a person is not guilty until they do it. Then it's to late, because they already have killed innocent people.

What we can't see in the heart of man,
God can see in the heart whether it's good or bad intentions.

But with humans will say, you can not find a person guilty until they commit it.

But with God that person already committed it, in their heart. So they are found guilty.
Did God know beforehand, No God didn't know, till it was found in their heart. Then God knew.

I think we are in agreement here. I suppose that God knew Saul intended to obey His command and that when Saul caved in to the desires of the people instead of God's command, it meant that Saul was not going to be the king that God had wanted him to be. And I suppose that in Genesis 6:6, God saw the evil intentions in the heart of man. These passages seem to suggest that God allows people to make a choice and that He is well aware of the choice. I think interpreting these passages becomes a bit more complicated when you start to say that God had fore-knowledge of what people would choose. I'm not saying you can't interpret it that way, but if you do it does seem to raise some conundrums.

 

[Skwim]

Because you are doing something that you don't want to do, but it's still the right thing to do.

So, if it's the right thing to do, why wouldn't you want to do it?..................... You're not making sense here.

but the point is that it is possible to have regrets over things where you didn't make a mistake.

Like what? And keep in mind that we're not talking about "things" in general, but specific acts. So, what have you ever regretted doing that wasn't a mistake?

Speculatively speaking, maybe God saw a possible future for Saul, but Saul chose the regrettable path.

Perhaps, but in any case god tells us that . . .

"I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."
​

God made a mistake in having made Saul king.

Speculating on Genesis 6:6, God regrets making man because man is filled with evil intentions. Was it a mistake on God's part to make man? Maybe it was. Or maybe man didn't have to choose evil.

No maybe about it. The reason for god regretting having made man is immaterial. God made a mistake in having made man, and that's why he regretted it.

But wouldn't it have been better if you didn't have to punish your child? At the very least, don't you experience disappointment?

Of course, but the disappoint doesn't lie in the punishment I meted out, but in the fact that he deserved it.


.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I think we are in agreement here. I suppose that God knew Saul intended to obey His command and that when Saul caved in to the desires of the people instead of God's command, it meant that Saul was not going to be the king that God had wanted him to be. And I suppose that in Genesis 6:6, God saw the evil intentions in the heart of man. These passages seem to suggest that God allows people to make a choice and that He is well aware of the choice. I think interpreting these passages becomes a bit more complicated when you start to say that God had fore-knowledge of what people would choose. I'm not saying you can't interpret it that way, but if you do it does seem to raise some conundrums.

I agree, that God did not have foreknowledge how Saul was going to turn out, nor did God have foreknowledge of the evil intentions of mans in Genesis 6:6.
Not until God search out the heart and found the evil of intentions of man's heart was evil.
Jeremiah 17:10--"I the Lord search the heart, I try the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the reward of his doings"

Revelation 22:12--"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be"

God did not have foreknowledge of how Satan was going to turn out either, till evil was found in him.
Ezekiel 28:15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day you was created,
till evil was found in you"

Notice the word ( till ) this means that God had no foreknowledge that Satan was going to turn out evil ( till ) evil was found in Satan.

 

[ronandcarol]

Is God Omniscient as people say?
There are just some truths in the Bible that I was raised to believe and put my faith in;
1. God cannot lie.
2. God had His salvation plan before the earth was even created.
3. God has an unfailing love for us.
4. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
5. God does not want any to perish, but that all seeks forgiveness.
I was raised to believe that God wants us in heaven even though we are sinners.
That is why He made a plan to save us even before He created us. Why did He do this? Because He can see the end from the beginning, because He knows what is going to happen before it happens! Even though I was the chief of sinners, I now can rest in the Bible truth that God loves me more than my sinful past, because it says so in His Word. The Words that were written 2,000 years ago that have gone out and are constantly returning with what they were sent out for, they never return void.
ronandcarol

 

[Faithofchristian]

Is God Omniscient as people say?
There are just some truths in the Bible that I was raised to believe and put my faith in;
1. God cannot lie.
2. God had His salvation plan before the earth was even created.
3. God has an unfailing love for us.
4. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
5. God does not want any to perish, but that all seeks forgiveness.
I was raised to believe that God wants us in heaven even though we are sinners.
That is why He made a plan to save us even before He created us. Why did He do this? Because He can see the end from the beginning, because He knows what is going to happen before it happens! Even though I was the chief of sinners, I now can rest in the Bible truth that God loves me more than my sinful past, because it says so in His Word. The Words that were written 2,000 years ago that have gone out and are constantly returning with what they were sent out for, they never return void.
ronandcarol

That's what you were taught, But does not mean it's in God's word.
There is no where in God's word that will support your claim as God knowing what is to happen before it happens.

Show one book of the Bible and chapter and verse, As to where it says that God knows what is to happen before it happens.

That in my studing,reading the Bible in 45 years I have as of yet to come across such a verse or chapter in the Bible that makes this claim.
That God knows what's to happen before it happens. I hear alot of Pastor's, Preachers say this, but I have not found anything in the Bible to support this claim.

 

[Ponder This]

And where is the logical conundrum in that? Even if God knows the future, why would God care to change what He created to be the best possible universe in the first place? There is no contradiction in terms here that would create the kind of logical paradox that you're suggesting.

To be clear, I'm not saying that there is necessarily a paradox. I'm saying there is a 'confusing or difficult question or problem'.

Even your insistence on the idea that the future could be changed shows that you're still suffering from trying to separate the idea of "time" from the idea of "space" as if they were independent from each other. You want to consider time to be fixed only in the past, while remaining fluid and indeterminate in the future, but that's just an artifact of your inability to see forward in time. If you could, you would see that the future is just as fixed and unchanging as the past.

I'm not sure it matters, because science doesn't fully understand space-time. The Arrow of Time remains one of the unsolved problems of physics.

Suppose that I, playing the part of God, were to fashion a long pole out of wood, a pole that I call "SPACETIME," and lay it down horizontally on its side. I label the left side of the pole "PAST" and the right side of the pole "FUTURE." There is an ant marching at a constant pace from the left side of the pole to the right side, and the ant's name is "PRESENT." The ant knows things about the surface of the pole from where he started in the PAST all the way up to the point on the pole that he has reached, but he knows nothing about the surface he will be traversing from just a few millimeters in front of him all the way forward to the FUTURE.

But that doesn't mean that the right side of the pole is fluid and indeterminate--the right side of the pole is already fashioned. It will not change, even if I TOLD the ant about the FUTURE. Simply knowing what the other end of the pole is like would not enable the ant to alter it in any way. So having KNOWLEDGE of the future does not entail the power to change it, nor does it entail any logical conundrum.

That's a neat analogy! But I'm not sure how the analogy eliminates the problem because:

Also, while I have the power to cut off the right side and replace it with something different--why would I?

Even though the pole is "fixed", you acknowledge that the power to change the pole still exists. What is the conclusion?

I already made the pole just the way I wanted it. So even having the POWER to change the FUTURE entails no necessity to change it, nor any resultant logical conundrum.

You reach the same conclusion that I stated: the maker doesn't care to change the pole; the pole is exactly as the maker wants it to be.

This a conundrum, because we have a difficult time reconciling this point of view with many of the things that we experience in our lives. I'm not saying you can't; I'm saying it's difficult. For one thing (and I suppose the conversation was doomed to move in this direction), there is the problem of free will.

 

[Ponder This]

So, if it's the right thing to do, why wouldn't you want to do it?..................... You're not making sense here.


Like what? And keep in mind that we're not talking about "things" in general, but specific acts. So, what have you ever regretted doing that wasn't a mistake?


Perhaps, but in any case god tells us that . . .

"I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions."
​

God made a mistake in having made Saul king.


No maybe about it. The reason for god regretting having made man is immaterial. God made a mistake in having made man, and that's why he regretted it.


Of course, but the disappoint doesn't lie in the punishment I meted out, but in the fact that he deserved it.


.

Another example:
I make a present for someone, but the person I give the gift to, doesn't care for the gift properly. The reason I made the gift was to give it to this person. I might regret making the gift because it pains me to see this person not care for it properly, but I did not make a mistake in making the gift.

I've been clear about situations where people may experience regret. I think that I could probably keep coming up with examples. But at this point, if you don't agree with me, you probably won't agree with me if I give more examples.

 

[Ponder This]

I agree, that God did not have foreknowledge how Saul was going to turn out, nor did God have foreknowledge of the evil intentions of mans in Genesis 6:6.
Not until God search out the heart and found the evil of intentions of man's heart was evil.
Jeremiah 17:10--"I the Lord search the heart, I try the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the reward of his doings"

Revelation 22:12--"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be"

God did not have foreknowledge of how Satan was going to turn out either, till evil was found in him.
Ezekiel 28:15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day you was created,
till evil was found in you"

Notice the word ( till ) this means that God had no foreknowledge that Satan was going to turn out evil ( till ) evil was found in Satan.

We agree.

I think it's fair to say God set certain things in motion that will come to pass regardless of what we do. There is no reason to think that our Sun will not experience the same events that every other star of its type experiences. There is a certain inevitability to events that follow the chains of cause and effect. It simply isn't clear that that's all there is. We've described how people can have free will. The objection to foreknowledge isn't that God doesn't know certain future events, but rather that God does not know all future events - particularly the choices we will make according to our free will.

 

[Faithofchristian]

We agree.

I think it's fair to say God set certain things in motion that will come to pass regardless of what we do. There is no reason to think that our Sun will not experience the same events that every other star of its type experiences. There is a certain inevitability to events that follow the chains of cause and effect. It simply isn't clear that that's all there is. We've described how people can have free will. The objection to foreknowledge isn't that God doesn't know certain future events, but rather that God does not know all future events - particularly the choices we will make according to our free will.

The way God knows how future events will happen, Because God put into place his plan how future events will happen.
Therefore God knows exactly how future events will happen according to his plan.

So no matter how anyone trys to divert things from happening, God's plan will not deviate off future events that are to happen according to God's plan.

 

[Skwim]

Is God Omniscient as people say?
There are just some truths in the Bible that I was raised to believe and put my faith in;

1. God cannot lie.

If one believes what Jeremiah says is the truth then god has indeed lied.

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I, Jeremiah, said, “Lord God, you have tricked the people of Judah and Jerusalem. You said to them, ‘You will have peace.’ But now the sword is pointing at their throats!”​

2. God had His salvation plan before the earth was even created.

Perhaps, but it implies that even before he created us he knew we'd be in need of salvation. And why? Because he knew A&E would screw up, which means he deliberately created a flawed creature that would murder others, start wars, and do all sorts of vile things to each other and themselves. Gotta ask yourself, why would a god who has unfailing love for us, as you say in your third point below, do such a thing to his creation?

3. God has an unfailing love for us.

Which, no doubt, is why he killed thousands of innocent women and children, and left us all with pain and suffering and doubts and fears.

4. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

A destructive and uncaring creature who creates evil for all time. How reassuring.

5. God does not want any to perish, but that all seeks forgiveness.

And I think this is at the core of the Christian god; he created us as flawed creatures (how nice of him---NOT) so as to seek his forgiveness. AND, to love, honor, and worship him. This is one seriously needy and self absorbed god.

I was raised to believe that God wants us in heaven even though we are sinners.

Sure, because the more who qualify for heaven means the more that will have given him the praise, worship, and adoration he seeks.

That is why He made a plan to save us even before He created us. Why did He do this? Because He can see the end from the beginning, because He knows what is going to happen before it happens!

And the goal of all of this: deliberately creating sinful creatures who are put in a place where to avoid hell they have to kowtow to him, is to bring him glory, esteem, worship, adoration, and love---no matter how antithetical these may be.

Even though I was the chief of sinners, I now can rest in the Bible truth that God loves me more than my sinful past, because it says so in His Word. The Words that were written 2,000 years ago that have gone out and are constantly returning with what they were sent out for, they never return void.
ronandcarol

Good for you.

.

 

[Skwim]

Another example:
I make a present for someone, but the person I give the gift to, doesn't care for the gift properly. The reason I made the gift was to give it to this person. I might regret making the gift because it pains me to see this person not care for it properly, but I did not make a mistake in making the gift.

Sure you did. You were mistaken about how the person would treat the gift. Had you been aware of it you would not have made the mistake of making the gift and giving it to him in the first place, and thus you would have spared yourself the regret of having done so.

I think that I could probably keep coming up with examples. But at this point, if you don't agree with me, you probably won't agree with me if I give more examples.

Not if they're like this. In any case I see no reason to consider any more of your attempts, so I wouldn't bother concocting any more. Your choice of course.

.

 

[Faithofchristian]

If one believes what Jeremiah says is the truth then god has indeed lied.

Jeremiah 4:10
Then I, Jeremiah, said, “Lord God, you have tricked the people of Judah and Jerusalem. You said to them, ‘You will have peace.’ But now the sword is pointing at their throats!”​

Perhaps, but it implies that even before he created us he knew we'd be in need of salvation. And why? Because he knew A&E would screw up, which means he deliberately created a flawed creature that would murder others, start wars, and do all sorts of vile things to each other and themselves. Gotta ask yourself, why would a god who has unfailing love for us, as you say in your third point below, do such a thing to his creation?


Which, no doubt, is why he killed thousands of innocent women and children, and left us all with pain and suffering and doubts and fears.


A destructive and uncaring creature who creates evil for all time. How reassuring.


And I think this is at the core of the Christian god; he created us as flawed creatures (how nice of him---NOT) so as to seek his forgiveness. AND, to love, honor, and worship him. This is one seriously needy and self absorbed god.


Sure, because the more who qualify for heaven means the more that will have given him the praise, worship, and adoration he seeks.


And the goal of all of this: deliberately creating sinful creatures who are put in a place where to avoid hell they have to kowtow to him, is to bring him glory, esteem, worship, adoration, and love---no matter how antithetical these may be.


Good for you.

.

Maybe instead of you quoting one verse of Jeremiah 4:10 maybe you should find out why God said what he said,

Maybe it was because Israel turned their backs on God, So God turned his back on Israel.
Therefore it was Israel who first turned the back and went after other gods.

But you like alot of Christians only quote one verse, while all the others you say nothing about, so your just as worse as some Christians are.

Maybe had you read Chapters 4,5,6,7, you would found out why God did what he did.

Maybe if you had found out what the subject and Article is about first.

The subject is about Israel turning their backs on God, to after another god Israel claimed to be the queen of heaven. So God gave them over, and let Israel fall flat on their faces.

Let's for say, you have what you considered to be your best friend, Now down the road, you find out your best friend is out cursing you, slandering you, So what would you do, stay with them or turn your back as they turn their back on you first ?
I can guarantee you will be very angry cursing mad as all hell. And you know that is Right.

 

[Skwim]

Maybe instead of you quoting one verse of Jeremiah 4:10 maybe you should find out why God said what he said,

Maybe it was because Israel turned their backs on God, So God turned his back on Israel.
Therefore it was Israel who first turned the back and went after other gods.

But you like alot of Christians only quote one verse, while all the others you say nothing about, so your just as worse as some Christians are.

Maybe had you read Chapters 4,5,6,7, you would found out why God did what he did.

Maybe if you had found out what the subject and Article is about first.

The subject is about Israel turning their backs on God, to after another god Israel claimed to be the queen of heaven. So God gave them over, and let Israel fall flat on their faces.

None of this makes any difference. My point is in answer to the claim "God cannot lie." If one believes Jeremiah 4:10, then it's evidence that god can lie. The why and wherefore makes no difference:. GOD C-A-N LIE, and has done so. Want to make excuses for his lie go right ahead, but it doesn't change the fact of the matter.

.

 

[blü 2]

I wanted to ask you (and all of you), why do you quote scrupture as a native language?

Scripture does not speak for itself.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but scripture is ancient documents, and ancient documents say what they say. Any attempt to impose on them an interpretation not present in the text is a perversion of what they say, surely?