Is God perfect and omnipotent?

[Godwilling]

Christianity asserts that there is only one God and that He is omnipotent and perfect. Christianity also asserts that humans are imperfect and that because we are imperfect God will punish our mistakes with death.
How can God make the mistake of making something imperfect? If it is not a mistake, then what kind of a sick joke is it to make deficient children and then punish them for being deficient?
Does a good parent punish a cognitively or intellectually challenged child no matter how the child became that way?
Is the string of tornadoes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters that take place in the world continuously outside of God’s control or organized by him?
Christians assert that their perfect God made the Earth for them, the same Earth kills Christians and non-Christians indiscriminately every day. Christians blame the Devil for the current situation without apparent awareness of the contradictions: If God is perfect why did he make the Devil bad? If God is omnipotent why is he not able to control the Devil? If God can control the Devil why does he not?
If God is perfect and omnipotent and he allows his children to suffer, is he evil?
If God is not evil, does he not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death?
If he does not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death, is He really perfect and omnipotent?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God is not human so God is under no obligation to be humane. We do, but we have no obligation to be divine.

God is good as God is good, not as humans are good.

Curious though that Jesus was humane because he was human.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Christianity asserts that there is only one God and that He is omnipotent and perfect. Christianity also asserts that humans are imperfect and that because we are imperfect God will punish our mistakes with death.
How can God make the mistake of making something imperfect? If it is not a mistake, then what kind of a sick joke is it to make deficient children and then punish them for being deficient?
Does a good parent punish a cognitively or intellectually challenged child no matter how the child became that way?
Is the string of tornadoes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters that take place in the world continuously outside of God’s control or organized by him?
Christians assert that their perfect God made the Earth for them, the same Earth kills Christians and non-Christians indiscriminately every day. Christians blame the Devil for the current situation without apparent awareness of the contradictions: If God is perfect why did he make the Devil bad? If God is omnipotent why is he not able to control the Devil? If God can control the Devil why does he not?
If God is perfect and omnipotent and he allows his children to suffer, is he evil?
If God is not evil, does he not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death?
If he does not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death, is He really perfect and omnipotent?

Was this post of yours suppose to be the "ah ha" moment for us Christians? Otherwise why post this in a "non-debate" section of the website?
Are you looking for honest discussion about these points? I see you are a former Christian, so why not just go in peace and leave us ignorant folk be?
Did you mean to make this post in a non-debate part of the forum?

 

[Strangelove]

Christianity asserts that there is only one God and that He is omnipotent and perfect. Christianity also asserts that humans are imperfect and that because we are imperfect God will punish our mistakes with death.
How can God make the mistake of making something imperfect? If it is not a mistake, then what kind of a sick joke is it to make deficient children and then punish them for being deficient?

The joke is that those who believe in Jesus Christ the SAVIOUR are declared not guilty for any imperfect mistakes that they make in the eyes of God. We are not punished with death but are rewarded with eternal life.

(John 3:15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Does a good parent punish a cognitively or intellectually challenged child no matter how the child became that way?

Unfair analogy. There is no supernatural intervention by a SAVIOUR in that particular relationship.

Is the string of tornadoes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters that take place in the world continuously outside of God’s control or organized by him?

How do you know Earthquakes and tornadoes are 'natural disasters'. Alot of the stuff happening in our times could be man made. A lot of disastrous things go on in Revelation but God never says He is directly responsible for them.

Christians assert that their perfect God made the Earth for them, the same Earth kills Christians and non-Christians indiscriminately every day. Christians blame the Devil for the current situation without apparent awareness of the contradictions: If God is perfect why did he make the Devil bad? If God is omnipotent why is he not able to control the Devil? If God can control the Devil why does he not?

He does control the devil. And He allows the devil to be the 'god of this world'. He has Him on a leash. And Christians have satan firmly bound by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

(Mark 3:27) No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

If God is perfect and omnipotent and he allows his children to suffer, is he evil?
If God is not evil, does he not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death?
If he does not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death, is He really perfect and omnipotent?

He gave us Christ the SAVIOUR to protect His sheep from death. Death of the physical body is nothing when you have eternal life in the spirit. Christ overcame the last enemy.

(1 Corinthians 15:26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Cheers.

 

[Godwilling]

Was this post of yours suppose to be the "ah ha" moment for us Christians?

The moment of "ah ha" can only emanate within. When I ask honest questions and religious leaders become uncomfortable and hostile, is when I feel the "ah ha" to which you refer.

Otherwise why post this in a "non-debate" section of the website?
Are you looking for honest discussion about these points? I see you are a former Christian, so why not just go in peace and leave us ignorant folk be?

Yes, of course I am looking for honest discussion. It has been answers by Christians in this forum that have helped me tremendously. This is why I am no longer a Christian.

Did you mean to make this post in a non-debate part of the forum?

I apologize for posting this thread in the wrong place. I don't know what DIR is, and I have tried to move it after your reply without success. Could you explain the process for moving the thread to a more appropriate directory?

 

[KittensAngel]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"


Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

I think most every "revealed" religions pantheon is comprised of deities created in the image and likeness of humans. As soon as a particular god is deemed possessed of any characteristic of the human personality, like jealousy, anger, etc... then it is precluded from being a higher consciousness than lowly humans who worship a higher power for just that reason.

The Christian religion is based on a fear paradigm. The Old Testament is replete with verses illustrating this. And that's why many critics believe it is obviously a man made fable, because for the very reason you outlined. A supreme perfect omni-creator can not create anything imperfect and in it's image and likeness.
With the exception of, it doing so by will. Which would preclude omni-benevolence as an inherent characteristic of that creative power and instead would relegate it unto omni-malevolence instead.
Then again, the God of the Christian fable is both divine and malevolent. It is both God and Satan. All good and all evil is it's creation, by of course it's omnipotent exercise. So while humans are said to be imperfect and God's natural born sinners, they are so by God's will. Making salvation an avenue of redemption from the will of God. Which of course, would be redundant for the realm that exists under the jurisdiction of one power that is proclaimed omniscient, omnipresent and omnigenesis.

 

[Godwilling]

I think most every "revealed" religions pantheon is comprised of deities created in the image and likeness of humans. As soon as a particular god is deemed possessed of any characteristic of the human personality, like jealousy, anger, etc... then it is precluded from being a higher consciousness than lowly humans who worship a higher power for just that reason.

The Christian religion is based on a fear paradigm. The Old Testament is replete with verses illustrating this. And that's why many critics believe it is obviously a man made fable, because for the very reason you outlined. A supreme perfect omni-creator can not create anything imperfect and in it's image and likeness.
With the exception of, it doing so by will. Which would preclude omni-benevolence as an inherent characteristic of that creative power and instead would relegate it unto omni-malevolence instead.
Then again, the God of the Christian fable is both divine and malevolent. It is both God and Satan. All good and all evil is it's creation, by of course it's omnipotent exercise. So while humans are said to be imperfect and God's natural born sinners, they are so by God's will. Making salvation an avenue of redemption from the will of God. Which of course, would be redundant for the realm that exists under the jurisdiction of one power that is proclaimed omniscient, omnipresent and omnigenesis.

I had not seen your quote from Epicurus before. I guess I am not the only one who has asked these questions.

 

[bain-druie]

I had not seen your quote from Epicurus before. I guess I am not the only one who has asked these questions.

Oh, no, you are far from alone in your questions. I'm still surprised when I find someone exposed to religion who has NOT asked them, in some form.

I believe in a Creator/Creatrix that is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, but unlike many monotheists (particularly Abrahamics, though not in all cases) I do not anthropomorphize the Creator.

The OT paints quite an appalling picture of Yahweh as a genocidal, racist, narcissistic egomaniac; the NT, from my perspective, reinforces this image.

However, this is not unlike many if not most of the other pagan tribal deities of the time, who were invoked to give the tribe or group a perceived advantage. The gods in this sense were just basically invisible super-powerful tribal leaders, given to the same moods and flaws as humans, yet simultaneously credited with divinity.

Nothing has changed, except that one tribal deity (or his name, used by various humans and human organizations, or both - depends how you see it) successfully managed to take over a lot of the world beyond his original group of adherents. The unfortunate results are not surprising.

The problem with trying to reason about this is that I've noticed many Christians in particular will anthropomorphize their god by ascribing human emotions and motivations to him, but when challenged regarding the lack of sense, compassion, morals, etc. in the biblical accounts of this god, they instantly fall back on the defense that their god is not human, and therefore is beyond human comprehension.

To my mind, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, 'God loves you, and this is how he proves it, and therefore you're expected to respond by throwing yourself gratefully at his feet; but anything you don't like is just because god is higher than you, and your puny brain can't understand him. Refusing to believe because you don't agree with something god does or says is proud and blasphemous.' Um, yeah. No, thanks.

Among the many reasons I don't accept this kind of deity are some of the same reasons I don't swallow bottles of castor oil. 1) Even if it does not actually make me very ill, it will probably cause a lot of unfortunate emissions. 2) I gag on it; it's not palatable.

I don't mind when people do like to swallow bottles of castor oil any more than I mind when people like to believe the Bible - it might even do some of them some good, perhaps; but I do mind when they want me to do the same.

One word of caution: Don't expect all christians to leave the faith you left because you see your reasons as so convincing. Your reasons are sufficient for you, as they should be. But when you expect them to see as you see, and follow the same path you've taken, you're doing the same thing many of them (not all) do to the rest of us.

My two cents.

 

[Greyn]

Christianity asserts that there is only one God and that He is omnipotent and perfect. Christianity also asserts that humans are imperfect and that because we are imperfect God will punish our mistakes with death.
How can God make the mistake of making something imperfect? If it is not a mistake, then what kind of a sick joke is it to make deficient children and then punish them for being deficient?
Does a good parent punish a cognitively or intellectually challenged child no matter how the child became that way?
Is the string of tornadoes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters that take place in the world continuously outside of God’s control or organized by him?
Christians assert that their perfect God made the Earth for them, the same Earth kills Christians and non-Christians indiscriminately every day. Christians blame the Devil for the current situation without apparent awareness of the contradictions: If God is perfect why did he make the Devil bad? If God is omnipotent why is he not able to control the Devil? If God can control the Devil why does he not?
If God is perfect and omnipotent and he allows his children to suffer, is he evil?
If God is not evil, does he not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death?
If he does not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death, is He really perfect and omnipotent?

These are good questions. I like these questions because it makes me take a hard look at reality. If I may construe, you are basically asking "Why are there bad things in a world that is supposedly created by a perfect, loving God?" I suppose the short answer would be, we don't have the full picture.

A forest fire can be a very destructive force, as well as a very vital and life promoting event. Is it evil? All depends if its your house that gets burned down, I suppose.

Another way to look at this is the most important lessons I have ever learned, usually were taught by through the most painful experiences. I would have loved for those lessons to be taught by less traumatizing events, but I probably would not have received the full value of the teaching. I am a bit hard headed, I guess. And God seems to know that.

 

[rusra02]

Christianity asserts that there is only one God and that He is omnipotent and perfect. Christianity also asserts that humans are imperfect and that because we are imperfect God will punish our mistakes with death.
How can God make the mistake of making something imperfect? If it is not a mistake, then what kind of a sick joke is it to make deficient children and then punish them for being deficient?
Does a good parent punish a cognitively or intellectually challenged child no matter how the child became that way?
Is the string of tornadoes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters that take place in the world continuously outside of God’s control or organized by him?
Christians assert that their perfect God made the Earth for them, the same Earth kills Christians and non-Christians indiscriminately every day. Christians blame the Devil for the current situation without apparent awareness of the contradictions: If God is perfect why did he make the Devil bad? If God is omnipotent why is he not able to control the Devil? If God can control the Devil why does he not?
If God is perfect and omnipotent and he allows his children to suffer, is he evil?
If God is not evil, does he not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death?
If he does not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death, is He really perfect and omnipotent?

Your questions are valid and deserve answers. The Bible does not say that God created imperfect humans or that he created the Devil. To the contrary, the Bible says regarding God "Perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he. They [humans] have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. (Deuteronomy 32:4-5) Adam and Eve were created perfect, with the prospect of living forever. Only if they disobeyed their Lifegiver would they die. (Genesis 2:16,17). God likewise created the angels perfect, including the one who later rebelled and made himself a Devil, and other angels who sinned against God. (Jude 6)
God has purposed to completely undo all the harm that wicked men and angels have caused. However, he has permitted sufficient time to pass to settle the moral issues that Satan raised in his falsely accusing God before our first parents. God does not cause suffering and has promised to end it at his time and way. (Revelation 21:3,4) The Bible calls Satan the "ruler of this world" and frankly says "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one". (John 12:31,1 John 5:19)
God will soon completely destroy the system of things Satan has established and remove the wicked. (Daniel 2:44, Psalms 37:10,11,29) Then he will restore obedient men and women to the perfection lost by Adam, resulting in everlasting life. (John 3:16)

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't know - I saw god's boobs, and the left one looked a little bigger than the right one. I think the whole perfect thing is totally overexaggerated

 

[Manahel.Fatima]

Well dear GOD is just one weather its Christianity or Islam It says their is one GOD to be worship their is no child of GOD and he make humans with imperfection so that to make them perfect they search their destiny. If people have any kind of problem and they feel like imperfection then they have to be bestow on their knees and pray to ALLAH to solve their problems and make this imprefection the perfect.

 

[PolyHedral]

God is certainly not perfect, and Him being not omnipotent is the easiest way to get rid of the problem of evil.

 

[Godwilling]

To my mind, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, 'God loves you, and this is how he proves it, and therefore you're expected to respond by throwing yourself gratefully at his feet; but anything you don't like is just because god is higher than you, and your puny brain can't understand him. Refusing to believe because you don't agree with something god does or says is proud and blasphemous.' Um, yeah. No, thanks.

There is much more money to be made by maintaining existing religions by maintaining sets of beliefs, even when they make no sense, than to tell the followers that those creeds were developed by people with rudimentary knowledge of the world and less intelligence than ambition and anger.

One word of caution: Don't expect all christians to leave the faith you left because you see your reasons as so convincing. Your reasons are sufficient for you, as they should be. But when you expect them to see as you see, and follow the same path you've taken, you're doing the same thing many of them (not all) do to the rest of us.

My two cents.

Thank you for your reply. I don’t expect any believer to think as I do. I asked questions the answers to which helped me realized the level of complacent nonsense that people are willing to absorb when the nonsense is inculcated from birth. I was one of those people. Fortunately for me, I am able to absorb and synthesize large amounts of information without fear of offending any deity.
Now, I ask questions, the answers to which help me understand the level of intelligence of some and honesty of others.
In other words, my questions and whatever answers I receive benefit me, and my intention is to benefit myself. If it benefits anyone else, it would be a welcomed bi-product.

 

[Godwilling]

[

Your questions are valid and deserve answers.

I was not aware that questions here needed validation, but thanks for validating them and deeming them as deserving.

The Bible does not say that God created imperfect humans or that he created the Devil.

Are you saying that God did not create everything, or that God created perfect things that became imperfect? If God is perfect and He created humans and Lucifer and both “malfunctioned”, who is to blame? If it is God then He cannot logically be perfect and omnipotent and yet make mistakes. On the other hand, if it not God’s fault that His creation “malfunctioned”, that can be the case only if He is not perfect and omnipotent and is, therefore, expected to make mistakes.[/quote]

To the contrary, the Bible says regarding God "Perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he. They [humans] have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. (Deuteronomy 32:4-5) Adam and Eve were created perfect, with the prospect of living forever. Only if they disobeyed their Lifegiver would they die. (Genesis 2:16,17). God likewise created the angels perfect, including the one who later rebelled and made himself a Devil, and other angels who sinned against God. (Jude 6)

God has purposed to completely undo all the harm that wicked men and angels have caused. However, he has permitted sufficient time to pass to settle the moral issues that Satan raised in his falsely accusing God before our first parents. God does not cause suffering and has promised to end it at his time and way. (Revelation 21:3,4) The Bible calls Satan the "ruler of this world" and frankly says "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one". (John 12:31,1 John 5:19)
God will soon completely destroy the system of things Satan has established and remove the wicked. (Daniel 2:44, Psalms 37:10,11,29) Then he will restore obedient men and women to the perfection lost by Adam, resulting in everlasting life. (John 3:16)

[/quote]
This all sounds like parents who blame their children for their children’s lack of knowledge, antisocial behaviour, or lack of success. I am not perfect, and I would be ashamed of myself if that applied to any of my children, because I know that my children are the product of my genetics, my parenting skills, and my financial resources. I would apologize to my children for having failed them, rather than fail them and then blame them for my own failures.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Are you saying that God did not create everything, or that God created perfect things that became imperfect? If God is perfect and He created humans and Lucifer and both “malfunctioned”, who is to blame? If it is God then He cannot logically be perfect and omnipotent and yet make mistakes. On the other hand, if it not God’s fault that His creation “malfunctioned”, that can be the case only if He is not perfect and omnipotent and is, therefore, expected to make mistakes.

This all sounds like parents who blame their children for their children’s lack of knowledge, antisocial behaviour, or lack of success. I am not perfect, and I would be ashamed of myself if that applied to any of my children, because I know that my children are the product of my genetics, my parenting skills, and my financial resources. I would apologize to my children for having failed them, rather than fail them and then blame them for my own failures.

And that is the beauty of free will. It was God's gift to us, that we misused. He created us as perfect beings with free will, and we chose to become imperfect. God created humanity and gave it the chance to do whatever it wanted, to carve its own path and follow him whether it wanted to or not. It was not a failure. God had never before given complete free will to any of His many creations. To have a creation that would actually CHOOSE to worship Him, to actually CHOOSE to serve Him, rather than be forced to. Nothing was a failure. God created us in the knowledge of the path that humanity would take. Humanity is God's joy. He has unending love for us, and finds great joy in our free will. It is the beauty of humanity.

 

[lunakilo]

Christianity asserts that there is only one God and that He is omnipotent and perfect. Christianity also asserts that humans are imperfect and that because we are imperfect God will punish our mistakes with death.
How can God make the mistake of making something imperfect? If it is not a mistake, then what kind of a sick joke is it to make deficient children and then punish them for being deficient?
Does a good parent punish a cognitively or intellectually challenged child no matter how the child became that way?
Is the string of tornadoes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters that take place in the world continuously outside of God’s control or organized by him?
Christians assert that their perfect God made the Earth for them, the same Earth kills Christians and non-Christians indiscriminately every day. Christians blame the Devil for the current situation without apparent awareness of the contradictions: If God is perfect why did he make the Devil bad? If God is omnipotent why is he not able to control the Devil? If God can control the Devil why does he not?
If God is perfect and omnipotent and he allows his children to suffer, is he evil?
If God is not evil, does he not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death?
If he does not have the power to protect his children from suffering and death, is He really perfect and omnipotent?

Well, since I am not religious, I may not be the right person to answer the question, but...

If people have never experienced 'bad things' I don't think they would appreciate the perfection of heaven.

 

[rusra02]

[

I was not aware that questions here needed validation, but thanks for validating them and deeming them as deserving.


Are you saying that God did not create everything, or that God created perfect things that became imperfect? If God is perfect and He created humans and Lucifer and both “malfunctioned”, who is to blame? If it is God then He cannot logically be perfect and omnipotent and yet make mistakes. On the other hand, if it not God’s fault that His creation “malfunctioned”, that can be the case only if He is not perfect and omnipotent and is, therefore, expected to make mistakes.

[/quote]
This all sounds like parents who blame their children for their children’s lack of knowledge, antisocial behaviour, or lack of success. I am not perfect, and I would be ashamed of myself if that applied to any of my children, because I know that my children are the product of my genetics, my parenting skills, and my financial resources. I would apologize to my children for having failed them, rather than fail them and then blame them for my own failures.[/quote]

You are being too hard on yourself, and more importantly, on God. Adam and Eve and Satan didn't malfunction. They chose a course deliberately and knowingly. Their defect was a moral one, not an inherent weakness. Many imperfect people have since followed a course of righteousness despite very unfavorable conditions. Job is one of these (book of Job).
A perfect creature who has free will, and is not ruled by instinct or forced to follow a certain course, is responsible for his conduct. So are imperfect creatures. And to blame God for the rebellion of some of his children would be tantamount to saying all children who do evil, have evil or incompetent parents. That simply is not the case. Rather, each individual has the same gift of free will, and the same responsibility to exercise it rightly.
The Bible frankly states "The inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up" (Genesis 8:21). This evil inclination came from our first human father Adam.
It is true all human parents are imperfect and therefore cannot be perfect parents. Still, many righteous children come from evil parents, and many righteous parents spawn evil offspring. (2 Chronicles 34:1-3 and 2 Kings 21:1)
God created man perfect, with the ability to make moral choices. Adam and Eve choose to do evil. So did Satan. So do many today. God will soon remove the wicked and restore the earth to the conditions Adam and Eve enjoyed before their sin. (Psalms 37:10,11) The blame for what we see today is man's guiltiness, not God.

 

[PolyHedral]

They chose a course deliberately and knowingly.

How would they do that without understanding good and evil?

...to blame God for the rebellion of some of his children would be tantamount to saying all children who do evil, have evil or incompetent parents.

Assuming that our parents totally controlled our environment, you're right, and that's an entirely logical argument.

 

[sojourner]

Assuming that our parents totally controlled our environment, you're right, and that's an entirely logical argument.

God does not totally control our environment. That is made clear in Genesis.