Gyrannon
Agnostic Necromancer
If I could provide proof of his existence, I wouldn't be agnostic.
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Is God Supernatural?
- Thread starter idav
- Start date
If I could provide proof of his existence, I wouldn't be agnostic.
For the natural sort of theology is the speculation in the defining nature differently?
Would you mind elaborating?
That does seem sort of odd to me, as if that should be the only way to think of god, that gods spliced into the very definition of supernatural.
Even a natural god wouldn't be much of a god without at least some sort of omniscience. Otherwise it would be quite a powerless universe and a product of its own limitations.
That reminds me of ancients and how they might consider what we do today sorcery.
Ok, ya. I'm not clear how that relates to my post though?
Well I included two definitions and neither are sufficient? Do you think its possible for things to exist outside of any possible understanding and beyond the laws of logic and reason?
Its in response to "sexed up atheism". I am not sure relabeling an atheistic outlook would necessarily be theistic. There would have to be more to it.
Outside of any possible understanding? Sure, but unless you have a time machine, you aren't in any position to say what "any possible understanding" is.
And anything that's "outside of any possible understanding" is, well, outside of any possible understanding... IOW, nothing is known about it. This means that anyone making claims about it is just making stuff up: yes, maybe stuff exists beyond everyone's knowledge, but then it's beyond YOUR knowledge too, so you're in no position to make any claims about it.
If that's your definition of "supernatural", then we can stop talking about the supernatural now, because there's nothing more to say. If it's supernatural, we can't talk intelligently about it, and if we can talk intelligently about it, it's not supernatural.
"Beyond the laws of logic and reason"? No. If there's stuff happening in the universe that is incompatible with our understanding of logic and reason, then this is a sign that our understanding of logic and reason is incomplete and there's more to the laws of logic and reason that we realize.
This makes sense thanks. When some paint god as something that must be outside of logic and reason, there would be no reason we should be able to even think up such a deity. Surely if we can think up the deity it is well within comprehension.
How can an intangible un-measurable thing even cause anything in the physical? It seems if something is causing the brain and physical body to do something then it can be detected and measured.
The soul is the conscious , if one could determine and explain how exactly it operates on the physical being , we would no longer call it Metaphysical or Spiritual, it would be one or more of the natural sciences.
Religious leaders , scriptures , philosophers and NDE have talked about the presence of a soul or conscious .
Religious leaders , scriptures , philosophers and NDE have talked about the presence of a soul or conscious .
This seems to go on the premise that the soul and/or consciousness is supernatural, which is fine to believe. Not trying to ask on how it operates or anything but just the fact that it "operates on the physical being" essentially means it is detectable one way or another.
I'm not sure we would be looking for blood, tissues samples or anything. I think a lot of folks feel that god is spiritual in nature and not necessarily a guy in the sky waiting to reward or punish based on fellowship. I suppose if God were similar to some alien being creating things and taking off, then this being could be harder to find than a god that is more like an ether force of some kind.
Here is what I mean by ether.
ether definition 3.
Physics archaic - A very rarefied and highly elastic substance formerly believed to permeate all space, including the interstices between the particles of matter, and to be the medium whose vibrations constituted light and other electromagnetic radiation.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ether
There certainly seem to be forces or substance, space-time and higgs boson, perhaps dark matter, which permeate the entire universe.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/fifth-force-permeate-universe08182016/
@idav
How to detect the presence of the soul ? Yes, this is possible through a few questions
1. As human beings why all of us want to live in peace ? Want happiness ?Want to feel powerful , feel in control of situations. Try telling yourself, well this search for peace and happiness is vain I enjoy being in sorrow , I myself have tried telling this to myself , doesn't last long , there is a strong repulsion towards sorrow , peacelessness .We try hard to get rid of that feeling of sorrow , ( now that's a different story that we search for it in material things and it never gets quenched). Why do we want peace to survive and struggle for happiness ? So what is the common quantity within us which is in search for all these? If you say we are programed so , I would ask where is that program located , can it be detected ? and who programmed it ? That would be my answer for the soul and Supreme Soul .
2. Another beautiful example is a verse from Quran
"And I do call to witness the Nafs(the soul) that blames" (75:2)."
The question here is what is that which pricks when one does something wrong? Why does one have to give so much justification to oneself when there is a doubt whether the deed is right or wrong? What bites us when doing wrong ? Try giving charity and try snatching something from some one ? One raises your mercury levels , the other depletes you? Whereas logically speaking you should have been happier in the later case because you gained something here.
In a nutshell , " The proof for the presence of soul or conscious is the presence of the liking for good in all of us".
How to detect the presence of the soul ? Yes, this is possible through a few questions
1. As human beings why all of us want to live in peace ? Want happiness ?Want to feel powerful , feel in control of situations. Try telling yourself, well this search for peace and happiness is vain I enjoy being in sorrow , I myself have tried telling this to myself , doesn't last long , there is a strong repulsion towards sorrow , peacelessness .We try hard to get rid of that feeling of sorrow , ( now that's a different story that we search for it in material things and it never gets quenched). Why do we want peace to survive and struggle for happiness ? So what is the common quantity within us which is in search for all these? If you say we are programed so , I would ask where is that program located , can it be detected ? and who programmed it ? That would be my answer for the soul and Supreme Soul .
2. Another beautiful example is a verse from Quran
"And I do call to witness the Nafs(the soul) that blames" (75:2)."
The question here is what is that which pricks when one does something wrong? Why does one have to give so much justification to oneself when there is a doubt whether the deed is right or wrong? What bites us when doing wrong ? Try giving charity and try snatching something from some one ? One raises your mercury levels , the other depletes you? Whereas logically speaking you should have been happier in the later case because you gained something here.
In a nutshell , " The proof for the presence of soul or conscious is the presence of the liking for good in all of us".
How do you figure?
"By definition"? What definition?
And what we would be looking for would be the effects of God.
So then belief in God is necessarily unjustified foolishness.
There are any number of baseless, ludicrous ideas that can't be conclusively disproved. What you're saying here lumps God in with them.
Do you think that all theists are necessarily irrational? Because that's the implication of your argument.
Gyrannon
Agnostic Necromancer
I'm explaining it from a neutral view point, I'm considering the beliefs of the believers and what scientists would expect (of course I'm assuming).
And Belief honestly has become more of a feeling than a fact, cause it is one thing say "I believe God exists" and quite another to say "I know God exists".
Knowing tends to be more of a solid thing, like the person has proof. With belief, all you have is the feeling.
Is the belief in any deity irrational? Not really when you think about it. Mankind has been believing in many things that isn't fully understood.
Also, people say "God is in everything" so it doesn't matter what anyone tells the believers - look at in reverse, its like a scientist trying to convince the world that rocks are made of water. As you would probably think they are nuts, they undoubtedly think the same of you.
I've already tried taking one sided approaches to this whole mess and have seen other people do the same, you have to have a neutral view on this in order to have a better grasp on it and be able to examine it for both sides.
su·per·nat·u·ral
ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Submit
adjective
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being"
synonyms: paranormal, psychic, magic, magical, occult, mystic, mystical, superhuman, supernormal; More
noun
1.
manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts.
God
ɡäd/
noun
noun: God; noun: god; plural noun: gods; plural noun: the gods
1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
"a moon god"
synonyms: deity, goddess, divine being, celestial being, divinity, immortal, avatar
"sacrifices to appease the gods"
an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god.
synonyms: idol, graven image, icon, totem, talisman, fetish, juju
"wooden gods"
used as a conventional personification of fate.
"he dialed the number and, the gods relenting, got through at once"
3.
an adored, admired, or influential person.
"he has little time for the fashion victims for whom he is a god"
a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.
"don't make money your god"
4.
informal
the gallery in a theater.
exclamation
exclamation: God
1.
used for emphasis or to express emotions such as surprise, anger, or distress.
"God, what did I do to deserve this?"
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Could you rephrase you question, please? I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
You used the word "imagine" a deity as natural/un-natural. Though if someone is seeing a god is natural, is that just a relabeling of nature in your view? Since your saying a more naturalistic view is at least more sound.
Thanks for the clarification. I think that in some instances, seeing god as natural could be a mere re-labeling of nature as "god". But it would depend on precisely what one meant by "nature" and "god". For instance, would it be a mere re-labeling of nature as we commonly understand it if someone were to say something along these lines, "While not beyond nature, God is an emergent property of nature", or "The universe is sentient, and its sentience is God"?
I can see that. It would depend on whether there is a significant difference in how someone is describing nature itslef. In which case I do see where speculation would come into play.
Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
Aztecan Ruins anytime you want to disturb the US Govment. It's like pocket sand. Aztecan Ruins, pocket sand. They just denounce responsibility for things administration after administration, and this country speaks of honor and glory, belittling the skeletons in the closet to this day. Then when they do produce some disclosure it is silly and insulting to your intelligence. I am about to not care anymore.. I'm not a bleeding heart, but I have to get the vile disgust out of my system.
Pocket sand, huzzah. They're all over the Mississippi Delta or whatever and I'm sure they had a pretty cool God too.
They used to sacrifice by the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, to appease the Sun Gods blood lust, not really. As a matter of fact I have no idea what the heck was going on over intrinsic genocide and evolution.
The Native were still in the stone age unfortunately, some of them had mystical weapons, other sticks and stones. I am broken of sympothy but the brutality that came next is a disgrace to this noble country, it was an organized genocide of the Aboriginal people of Mesa.
Pocket sand
Pocket sand
Pocket sand
I'm not about to catch a .306 over dead ones, let the dead worry about the dead, namean.
It was hot them days, and they was still lizard people running around, we get'em.
In later News they was a weave war at the crossroads, I was considering conducting a deal for calculus, if Satan can procure the arithmetic, he's is said to likely to rip me off. Probably a 9mm parabellum, Michieel goes on about the excellence of its design. He shoots lots of guns. He's troop.
Pocket sand, huzzah. They're all over the Mississippi Delta or whatever and I'm sure they had a pretty cool God too.
They used to sacrifice by the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, to appease the Sun Gods blood lust, not really. As a matter of fact I have no idea what the heck was going on over intrinsic genocide and evolution.
The Native were still in the stone age unfortunately, some of them had mystical weapons, other sticks and stones. I am broken of sympothy but the brutality that came next is a disgrace to this noble country, it was an organized genocide of the Aboriginal people of Mesa.
Pocket sand
Pocket sand
Pocket sand
I'm not about to catch a .306 over dead ones, let the dead worry about the dead, namean.
It was hot them days, and they was still lizard people running around, we get'em.
In later News they was a weave war at the crossroads, I was considering conducting a deal for calculus, if Satan can procure the arithmetic, he's is said to likely to rip me off. Probably a 9mm parabellum, Michieel goes on about the excellence of its design. He shoots lots of guns. He's troop.