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Is God the source of evil too?

Akivah

Well-Known Member
It was the story of a classroom teacher who was challenged by one of his pupils. The teacher was showing the class how to complete a difficult math equation when one of the students declared to the teacher and all his classmates that he had a better way to solve the equation.
The way the teacher handled the situation was interesting. He could have simply sent the disruptive student off to the principles office and continued on with his lesson, but he didnt. Rather he handed the student a piece of chalk and asked him to show the class his solution. The result showed the student to be in error and all his classmates laughed at him and he became the button of jokes for a long time.

What do you think of the teachers course of action?

That's a horrible story. A student should not be mocked for volunteering. That teacher should have stopped the class from laughing and jeering at the other student. As it is, no one else in class will step forward to attempt to work out a solution. No one like to be made fun of.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
That's a horrible story. A student should not be mocked for volunteering. That teacher should have stopped the class from laughing and jeering at the other student. As it is, no one else in class will step forward to attempt to work out a solution. No one like to be made fun of.

Well the student was making fun of the teacher by telling everyone that he had a better solution. It wasnt the teacher who was laughing at him... he simply handed him the chalk and allowed him the opportunity to present his solution to the class.

Do you think the teacher to be in error?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Well the student was making fun of the teacher by telling everyone that he had a better solution. It wasnt the teacher who was laughing at him... he simply handed him the chalk and allowed him the opportunity to present his solution to the class.

Do you think the teacher to be in error?
A teacher sets the tone for the room. A teacher who condones and even encourages non-traditional explanations or allows someone else in the room to be right, and engages as a learner, and not just as a teacher is doing it right. The teacher here started well by not squelching the excitement the student had. He should be able to observe, show the error in a constructive way and work with the student to understand. He even should ask the students in the class if they can piggy back on any aspect of what this student has done and maybe use this as a chance to "fail forward" into progress. Allowing the students to laugh will simply discourage any other student from coming up with an inventive and creative way to look at any issue in the future.

But hey, that's just 20 years in the classroom talking...
 
Evil is subjective. One man's evil is another man's good. God might do something that seems evil like cause a war, but if you are on God's side you will argue that it accomplishes the purposes of good.

God is evil to Satan.

Some people feel that God has attributes of evil because they don't agree with what He did, such as sending the 10 plagues or revealing to the Spanish that they were to take over Central and South America.

But if you're on God's side, everything he does is good. It's better to be on God's side if you truly love him as your Father in heaven.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
A big question I know, but what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God? We read in Genesis that God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, implying that God "knows Evil" and even allows the serpent to seduce Adam and Eve. There are other instances where God evokes evil such as: hardening Pharaoh's heart, using other nations to punish Israel and then vowing to punish the very same nations afterwards, commanding demons to torment Saul, and then Satan (but also attributed to God) tempting David to take a census.


I would say that yes, G-d is the source of the existence of evil.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
No one is suggesting that because God, as the source of all things, also created evil, that makes doing evil okay, or that it absolves us of fault when we do evil actions.

But ultimately, we can say that God is omnibenevolent or we can say that God is the source of all things. We can't say both.

This is really the crux of the matter. I suppose there are two ways of defining God.

One is to say God is a being just like us, only more expansive and powerful. That's the earliest conception of godhood that is shared by all theistic cultures. In that case maybe this particular god is a morally upstanding fellow, as divinities go (assuming that a lot of rumors we've heard about him aren't strictly true), but he's also subject to more or less the same rules of logic and basic natural laws that we are, which would meant that he couldn't have created them—the very act of creation requires the preexistence of certain rules and assumptions, after all. So maybe he's good, but he's not the source of good or definition of good, just a manifestation of it. And if he's just a being, then he didn't create all things (such as the very concept of "being," or whatever it is he's made of).

Another is to say God is the ground of all being, the fundamental reality that makes our very concept of "being" possible—not literally the creator except in the metaphorical sense, but the source, the substrate, the hypostasis. And we put a human face on that reality because that's what we know, even though it's not really a person on our level, but rather we are the human face of God. In that sense God would be the source of all things, good and ill, while at the same time not being morally culpable one way or the other. This view of God accounts for God as the ultimate reality behind all phenomena but doesn't really allow for benevolence, as that's a quality that individual beings within the world have.

Then there's the fact that the traditional meaning of "evil" (and the words that get translated that way) is anything that is unfavorable, unpleasant, noxious, etc. It's not restricted to moral evil, which is just one example of something that is those things. So it's not terribly controversial that if we posit a God that is responsible for the universe and all its splendors, that God is equally responsible for the hurricanes, fleas, intestinal worms, and gangrene. That's what Isaiah is getting at. It's also what the fruit of the tree in the Eden myth represents: the ability to discern what is favorable and what is unfavorable, in the human (and divine) sense. It's not that unfavorable things aren't native to the world, so much as that humans had to develop sapience before we could reflect on them and recognize them as deviations from an ideal (and work to change them).

So why do natural disasters and diseases and such exist (i.e. the original "problem of evil")? Well, it's our capacity to know good and evil that even allows us to ask that question. Other animals don't. They suffer but don't know why and don't have the capacity to imagine things otherwise. That's why moral evil is a uniquely human thing. Animals do horrible things to each other, but they don't really have the capacity to change. Humans do horrible things to each other, but we also have the godlike capacity to know and do better. So what does that have to do with God? Well, that's the question, but some would answer that moral good involves tapping into our true nature beneath the surface, recognizing a deeper reality than the blind animal struggle that so often obscures it—seeing the face of God, if you will—whereas moral evil just further blinds us to the truth and keeps us occupied with illusions and trivialities. In that sense God can be the source of all of our pleasures and pains, while at the same time moral goodness is an important key to the path of realizing the truth of God.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
This is really the crux of the matter. I suppose there are two ways of defining God.

One is to say God is a being just like us, only more expansive and powerful. That's the earliest conception of godhood that is shared by all theistic cultures. In that case maybe this particular god is a morally upstanding fellow, as divinities go (assuming that a lot of rumors we've heard about him aren't strictly true), but he's also subject to more or less the same rules of logic and basic natural laws that we are, which would meant that he couldn't have created them—the very act of creation requires the preexistence of certain rules and assumptions, after all. So maybe he's good, but he's not the source of good or definition of good, just a manifestation of it. And if he's just a being, then he didn't create all things (such as the very concept of "being," or whatever it is he's made of).

Another is to say God is the ground of all being, the fundamental reality that makes our very concept of "being" possible—not literally the creator except in the metaphorical sense, but the source, the substrate, the hypostasis. And we put a human face on that reality because that's what we know, even though it's not really a person on our level, but rather we are the human face of God. In that sense God would be the source of all things, good and ill, while at the same time not being morally culpable one way or the other. This view of God accounts for God as the ultimate reality behind all phenomena but doesn't really allow for benevolence, as that's a quality that individual beings within the world have.

I think you are depicting a theological dichotomy (if not a number of theological elements) foreign to Jewish thought.

For us, part of what makes God God is that-- being the embodiment of paradox-- He is simultaneously both ineffable and transcendant and also personal and immanent. In other words, God is both the Source of all being and outside all time and space, and also an actor within history and time.

No school of Jewish thought-- at least for the past couple millennia or so-- have thought God to be "a being just like us, only more expansive and powerful." Not anymore than we have thought that God is subject to the same natural laws that the universe is bound by, since we understand those laws to be of God's creation, and God to precede the universe. Our scholars have seen no reason why God-- preceding the universe, and being omnipotent, omniscient, etc.-- would require rules and assumptions based in this universe in order to exist or to create this universe.

While there are some schools of Kabbalah (Jewish esoteric mysticism) that postulate God as an ultimate reality, and all created things as illusory phenomena clouding our view of the truth of ultimate unity. But that is not actually a popular view, even in Kabbalistic circles. For the most part, we understand that God is real, and what He creates is real.

Then there's the fact that the traditional meaning of "evil" (and the words that get translated that way) is anything that is unfavorable, unpleasant, noxious, etc. It's not restricted to moral evil, which is just one example of something that is those things. So it's not terribly controversial that if we posit a God that is responsible for the universe and all its splendors, that God is equally responsible for the hurricanes, fleas, intestinal worms, and gangrene. That's what Isaiah is getting at. It's also what the fruit of the tree in the Eden myth represents: the ability to discern what is favorable and what is unfavorable, in the human (and divine) sense. It's not that unfavorable things aren't native to the world, so much as that humans had to develop sapience before we could reflect on them and recognize them as deviations from an ideal (and work to change them).

So why do natural disasters and diseases and such exist (i.e. the original "problem of evil")? Well, it's our capacity to know good and evil that even allows us to ask that question. Other animals don't. They suffer but don't know why and don't have the capacity to imagine things otherwise. That's why moral evil is a uniquely human thing. Animals do horrible things to each other, but they don't really have the capacity to change. Humans do horrible things to each other, but we also have the godlike capacity to know and do better. So what does that have to do with God? Well, that's the question, but some would answer that moral good involves tapping into our true nature beneath the surface, recognizing a deeper reality than the blind animal struggle that so often obscures it—seeing the face of God, if you will—whereas moral evil just further blinds us to the truth and keeps us occupied with illusions and trivialities. In that sense God can be the source of all of our pleasures and pains, while at the same time moral goodness is an important key to the path of realizing the truth of God.

Generally speaking, when Isaiah describes God as creating evil; or when Genesis describes human beings eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; we have most often understood that to be describing God's creation of human beings with free will, and the realization by humanity of their own free will. True evil requires intent, requires malice aforethought, and thus requires free will. Most natural phenomena that people have labelled evil in the past are not, in fact, evil, they are simply natural phenomena whose interactions with human beings produce unfortunate results for us.

Obviously, as the Source of all things, God is responsible for the existence of phenomena we find unfortunate or inconvenient or traumatic. These tend to be the result of the natural processes by which God causes the universe to exist: chaos, entropy, evolution and natural selection, etc. But in part, what Isaiah seems to be reminding us is that God is ultimately in some part or sense responsible for evil acts done by people to one another, since God deliberately created us with free will, knowing that we would often abuse it before we learned to master it (as we have yet to do), and that such abuse would be at the cost of other people's comfort or well-being or even lives.

The question many of us have, which will almost certainly remain unanswered, is why God chose to make this decision: what is the value of free will that would cause God to set its importance above so much inevitable suffering? We know no way to truly and effectively justify human suffering: some of us speculate that perhaps there is no justification, others strive to find potential justifications. But in the end, we hope that God knows, and has some explanation He can give us.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Generally speaking, when Isaiah describes God as creating evil; or when Genesis describes human beings eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; we have most often understood that to be describing God's creation of human beings with free will, and the realization by humanity of their own free will. True evil requires intent, requires malice aforethought, and thus requires free will. Most natural phenomena that people have labelled evil in the past are not, in fact, evil, they are simply natural phenomena whose interactions with human beings produce unfortunate results for us.

Obviously, as the Source of all things, God is responsible for the existence of phenomena we find unfortunate or inconvenient or traumatic. These tend to be the result of the natural processes by which God causes the universe to exist: chaos, entropy, evolution and natural selection, etc. But in part, what Isaiah seems to be reminding us is that God is ultimately in some part or sense responsible for evil acts done by people to one another, since God deliberately created us with free will, knowing that we would often abuse it before we learned to master it (as we have yet to do), and that such abuse would be at the cost of other people's comfort or well-being or even lives.

The question many of us have, which will almost certainly remain unanswered, is why God chose to make this decision: what is the value of free will that would cause God to set its importance above so much inevitable suffering? We know no way to truly and effectively justify human suffering: some of us speculate that perhaps there is no justification, others strive to find potential justifications. But in the end, we hope that God knows, and has some explanation He can give us.
Thanks, this is valuable. I will admit to approaching the question through a Christian lens, albeit one that is critical of the typical Western Christian framing of the Eden myth, which is overly legalistic and negative—hence looking for other ways to conceptualize the problem. And growing reservations about anthropomorphism in general. Hence the more or less Neo-Platonic rationalization, which I guess is what some Kabbalists are also working from.

Plus my personal suspicions regarding what the very early Christians were actually talking about in what amount to overtly mystical teachings, but that's another conversation.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Romans 7:7-8 (NIV) "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.' But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead."

While one can't push the analogy too far without comparing Apples to Oranges ...
G-d is the definition of 'good', and so creates the opportunity to moving away from Him.
His goodness creates the frame of reference which allows us to act in opposition ... to do 'evil'.
Thus a 'good' G-d can be said to passively 'create' evil without being the active source of evil.

Does that make any sense?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
There appears to be general agreement that God is the source of all things, both the good and the evil....so what are member's understanding of the meaning of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17), and what is meant by the eating of it?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
A big question I know, but what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God? We read in Genesis that God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, implying that God "knows Evil" and even allows the serpent to seduce Adam and Eve. There are other instances where God evokes evil such as: hardening Pharaoh's heart, using other nations to punish Israel and then vowing to punish the very same nations afterwards, commanding demons to torment Saul, and then Satan (but also attributed to God) tempting David to take a census.

God is the source of Free Will. He allows his intelligent creations to be free moral agents.

This means he allows them to make moral choices, but he certainly is not responsible for their decision to do wrong. The scriptures tell us that all Gods ways are justice and righteous. He does not commit acts of injustice nor is he prone to do wrong.

The account about the tree of good and bad (evil is an old english word found in older bibles) represented Gods right to decide what was good and bad. When Adam disobeyed God, he chose to decide for himself what was good and bad which is why the account says that Adam 'has become like God knowing good and bad'

Badness is anything which God says is bad.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
There appears to be general agreement that God is the source of all things, both the good and the evil....so what are member's understanding of the meaning of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17), and what is meant by the eating of it?

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is moral awareness. It is the awakening of comprehension of our own free will, and our realization that we can do what we want-- whether we should do so is another matter.

The Eden story is an allegory about growing up, becoming adult in this world we live in. It is both a parable about individuals growing up and becoming cognizant of their own power and their own moral responsibilities, and also a parable about the human species growing up and becoming cognizant of their own power and their own moral responsibilities.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I like both Pegg's and Levites's interpretation...thank you...I will meditate on them.

As you may or may not be aware, I have gone into the nod-dualism of Yoga, Taoism and Zen for many years and see an allegorical interpretation consistent with these traditions. So having this understanding of God as being absolute oneness, I view any awareness of duality as only an apparent duality...a relative duality arising from a perspective of being separate from one's source and environment....

God is One, all things that exist, exist in God....duality therefore can only be a perception of reality from awareness that sees itself separate from oneness of God. Adam before the fall, represents pure awareness/knowledge that is one with the source, good and evil duality is not perceived. So the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents dualistic knowledge, and when eaten from, Adam and Eve becomes self aware, individuals who sees themselves separate from God and thus naked, in the light of the apparent separate divine source of their existence. Thus Adam and Eve fall from a pure non-dual to dualistic mind awareness...a descent from the paradise of the non-duality of God, to the dualistic mind of post Eden exile..

Fwiw, my religious meditation practice is based on stilling the mind in order that the ego self awareness that perceives itself separate from all else, does not arise...and hence when this state is entered into....no duality enters the mind to disturb the peace that passes understanding that is always present...
 

arthra

Baha'i
In the Baha'i Faith "Evil" is considered the absence of Good...God created the universe "Good"...
The origin of evil in the Baha'i perspective... is man...that is the acts of men that destroy families and attack the peaceful existence of humanity... Racism is evil... Prejudice is evil... Perversity and cruelty are found in man... The plan of God is to overcome evil with good...overcome violence with non-violence.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
A big question I know, but what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God? We read in Genesis that God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, implying that God "knows Evil" and even allows the serpent to seduce Adam and Eve. There are other instances where God evokes evil such as: hardening Pharaoh's heart, using other nations to punish Israel and then vowing to punish the very same nations afterwards, commanding demons to torment Saul, and then Satan (but also attributed to God) tempting David to take a census.
Isaiah says that G-d created good and evil, as for what that entails, you would have to think about it.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
That quote is not God speaking. It is Job's friend Elihu. That is his theological opinion. It is not a revelatory declaration.

It is not Elihu we should be careful of but the words of Job's three false friends. Their speeches are full of half-truths and outright lies about God designed to demoralize Job even further. Jehovah himself chose to speak after Elihu did and did not correct him like he did Job and the other three. Due to the timing of Jehovah's own involvement, and how he was the only one not corrected in some way, Elihu's words carry authoritative weight.

After Jehovah had spoken these words to Job, Jehovah said to El'i-phaz the Te'man-ite:
"My anger burns against you and your two companions, for you have not spoken the truth about me as my servant Job has. Now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job, and offer up a burnt sacrifice for yourselves. And my servant Job will pray for you. I will surely accept his request (Lit., "Surely I will lift up his face.") not to deal with you according to your foolishness, for you have not spoken the truth about me as my servant Job has."
- Job 42:7,8
 
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Kolibri

Well-Known Member
One might even notice that Jehovah acted as a second witness against Job's specific error of declaring himself more righteous than God, thus showing Elihu's words to be in harmony with His own way of thinking.

But you said in my hearing,
Yes, I kept hearing these words,
'I am pure, without transgression;
I am clean, without error.
But God finds reason to oppose me;
He considers me his enemy.
He puts my feet in stocks;
He scrutinizes all my paths.'
But you are not right in saying this, so I will answer you:
God is far greater then mortal man.
Why do you complain against Him?
Is it because he did not answer all your words?
For God speaks once and a second time,
But no one pays attention,
- Job 33:8-14

Will you call into question (or "invalidate.") my justice?
Will you condemn me so that you may be right?
- Job 40:8
 

chevron1

Active Member
I think you are depicting a theological dichotomy (if not a number of theological elements) foreign to Jewish thought.

For us, part of what makes God God is that-- being the embodiment of paradox-- He is simultaneously both ineffable and transcendant and also personal and immanent. In other words, God is both the Source of all being and outside all time and space, and also an actor within history and time.
...
Generally speaking, when Isaiah describes God as creating evil; or when Genesis describes human beings eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; we have most often understood that to be describing God's creation of human beings with free will, and the realization by humanity of their own free will. True evil requires intent, requires malice aforethought, and thus requires free will. Most natural phenomena that people have labelled evil in the past are not, in fact, evil, they are simply natural phenomena whose interactions with human beings produce unfortunate results for us.


how interesting. are you saying that there is no evil no true evil if there can not be intent? if someone were brainwashed like patricia hearst, then she can NEVER be responsible for the symbionese liberation army?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
how interesting. are you saying that there is no evil no true evil if there can not be intent? if someone were brainwashed like patricia hearst, then she can NEVER be responsible for the symbionese liberation army?

Leaving aside my skepticism of Patty Hearst's veracity, if someone is truly taken captive and brainwashed against their will, then the evil of their actions is the responsibility of those who kidnapped and brainwashed them.

Brainwashing is compulsion to make one act as one would not otherwise choose to act. And in Jewish Law (as in many other legal systems), one is not held liable for acts one does under forcible compulsion.

I believe God's moral accountability would be no less compassionate and reasonable.
 
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