Is God three beings in one being according to christians on RF?

[Kenny]

What? How is that three parts? You keep on saying "we". But apart from being a spirit, what you say is
1) possession: we have a soul
2) location: we live in our body

Hardly a non-circular definition of why "we" are triune.

I didn't say you had to agree... and, in reality, for so many it doesn't matter how you explain it, it won't be enough... but the three parts are spirit, soul and body.

Well, if theists are ready to accept a Universe which is 6,000 years old, that wafers can literally turn into the body of a two thousand years God if you are male, dress funny and whisper some latin words, that women originated from a rib, and all that, then the trinity is a piece of cake, in comparison.

Ciao

- viole

I'm not sure where this fits in to the subject matter or how this relates. But it was funny.

 

[Lain]

So you do not believe in the trinity? Do you believe only the Father is God?

I am a Trinitarian, but proper Trinitarian theology affirms the Monarchy of the Father as the Scriptures do (in my opinion). St. Paul incessantly says "God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ," and "for us there is One God, the Father" and the Lord Jesus said the same, referring to the Father as God saying "not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father."

The Monarchy of the Father means that He does not derive from any source, He alone is the Principle of All yet is without Principle Himself, the Uncaused Cause of All. This is why there is One God. I believe that the Father generated, birthed, begot, caused, the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him. They have one common essence due to this. Focusing on the Father and Son: nothing generates something which does not have the same essence. A dog does not give birth to a giraffe or a dolphin, but another dog, a human gives birth to a human, who has the same essence, but is not the same person. Adam begot Abel, yet Abel and Adam are not the same person but they have the same common essence, humanity. So likewise the Father begets the Son, so the Son has the same essence as the Father, yet is not the same Person as the Father. The Son is derived from the Father, the Father is not derived. This is the Monarchy.

When people say "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God" what they mean to say is "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have the same essence."

All in my opinion of course.

 

[Lain]

Not clear, theTrinity is described as three persons in One God including the Father God" Trinity -

Wikipedia

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as being one god existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit — three distinct persons sharing one essence. "

What you are describing above is a hierarchy of Gods

I am not describing a hierarchy, I am describing the Monarchy of the Father. Now one may truly say with respect to causation that the Father is greater than the Son, which the Lord Jesus says "the Father is greater than I" (and a Person is not a nature so truly He says this of His Person), which the Church Fathers concur with:

St. Basil saying: "Since the Son’s origin is from the Father, in this respect the Father is greater, as cause and origin."
St. John Chrysostom saying: "If any one say that the Father is greater, inasmuch as He is the cause of the Son, we will not contradict this. But this does not by any means make the Son to be of a different Essence."

And so on. As I said, I am sticking to what the Fathers say, and the Scriptures also. Wikipedia has the order of theology kind of awkward there, and "sharing" is outright false and not the Trinitarian position.

All in my opinion of course.

 

[Starlight]

I am a Trinitarian, but proper Trinitarian theology affirms the Monarchy of the Father as the Scriptures do (in my opinion). St. Paul incessantly says "God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ," and "for us there is One God, the Father" and the Lord Jesus said the same, referring to the Father as God saying "not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father."

The Monarchy of the Father means that He does not derive from any source, He alone is the Principle of All yet is without Principle Himself, the Uncaused Cause of All. This is why there is One God. I believe that the Father generated, birthed, begot, caused, the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him. They have one common essence due to this. Focusing on the Father and Son: nothing generates something which does not have the same essence. A dog does not give birth to a giraffe or a dolphin, but another dog, a human gives birth to a human, who has the same essence, but is not the same person. Adam begot Abel, yet Abel and Adam are not the same person but they have the same common essence, humanity. So likewise the Father begets the Son, so the Son has the same essence as the Father, yet is not the same Person as the Father. The Son is derived from the Father, the Father is not derived. This is the Monarchy.

When people say "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God" what they mean to say is "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have the same essence."

This sounds like subordination. The belief that the Father is greater than the son and the holy spirit.

Two human beings is not one being. They are two different beings.
But according to the offical trinity doctrine God is three persons in only one Being. So your explanation is wrong.

 

[metis]

Not according to me, because that is not the Trinity that I know. That sounds like it would be fairly contradictory at first glance to me.

Exactly, as all too many either accidentally or intentionally conflate the Trinitarian concept with polytheism, and this has been covered ad nauseum here at RF.

 

[Starlight]

I am not describing a hierarchy, I am describing the Monarchy of the Father. Now one may truly say with respect to causation that the Father is greater than the Son, which the Lord Jesus says "the Father is greater than I" (and a Person is not a nature so truly He says this of His Person), which the Church Fathers concur with:

St. Basil saying: "Since the Son’s origin is from the Father, in this respect the Father is greater, as cause and origin."
St. John Chrysostom saying: "If any one say that the Father is greater, inasmuch as He is the cause of the Son, we will not contradict this. But this does not by any means make the Son to be of a different Essence."

And so on. As I said, I am sticking to what the Fathers say, and the Scriptures also. Wikipedia has the order of theology kind of awkward there, and "sharing" is outright false and not the Trinitarian position.

All in my opinion of course.

Are you protestant, Catholic or ortodox Christian?

 

[shunyadragon]

I am not describing a hierarchy, I am describing the Monarchy of the Father. Now one may truly say with respect to causation that the Father is greater than the Son, which the Lord Jesus says "the Father is greater than I" (and a Person is not a nature so truly He says this of His Person), which the Church Fathers concur with:

St. Basil saying: "Since the Son’s origin is from the Father, in this respect the Father is greater, as cause and origin."
St. John Chrysostom saying: "If any one say that the Father is greater, inasmuch as He is the cause of the Son, we will not contradict this. But this does not by any means make the Son to be of a different Essence."

And so on. As I said, I am sticking to what the Fathers say, and the Scriptures also. Wikipedia has the order of theology kind of awkward there, and "sharing" is outright false and not the Trinitarian position.

All in my opinion of course.

Good thing you qualified this view as imo, because ALL the major churches define the Trinity as cited including the Roman Church (RCC), Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptists, Methodists which represents 90%+ of all Christians.

 

[Lain]

This sounds like subordination. The belief that the Father is greater than the son and the holy spirit.

Two human beings is not one being. They are two different beings.
But according to the offical trinity doctrine God is three persons in only one Being. So yourr explanation is wrong.

What you are calling "being" there we would call person. Two humans are two persons, and they have one essence, that is "humanity" (which is why they are both called human). Subordinationism is that the Son and the Spirit are subordinate in essence to the Father, that is, they do not have the same essence. It does not touch relations, such as the Father generating the Son.

The Three Persons are not one person, in Catholicism that is a heresy which has taken many forms and was refuted utterly in the early centuries (in my opinion).

As I quoted in another post in this thread, with respect to the relationships alone, the Father is greater than the Son, but not greater in essence, which is subordinationism.

All in my opinion of course.

 

[shunyadragon]

Exactly, as all too many either accidentally or intentionally conflate the Trinitarian concept with polytheism, and this has been covered ad nauseum here at RF.

Yes iti is covered adauseum on RF, but the facts are the facts the Trinity is described as a polytheistic concept similarto the Vedic view as that all Gods are aspects of the one 'Source' sometimes referred to as the Brahman.

 

[Starlight]

What you are calling "being" there we would call person. Two humans are two persons, and they have one essence, that is "humanity" (which is why they are both called human). Subordinationism is that the Son and the Spirit are subordinate in essence to the Father, that is, they do not have the same essence. It does not touch relations, such as the Father generating the Son.

The Three Persons are not one person, in Catholicism that is a heresy which has taken many forms and was refuted utterly in the early centuries (in my opinion).

As I quoted in another post in this thread, with respect to the relationships alone, the Father is greater than the Son, but not greater in essence, which is subordinationism.

All in my opinion of course.

You wrote "What you are calling "being" there we would call person".
Who is we?

 

[Starlight]

What you are calling "being" there we would call person. Two humans are two persons, and they have one essence, that is "humanity" (which is why they are both called human). Subordinationism is that the Son and the Spirit are subordinate in essence to the Father, that is, they do not have the same essence. It does not touch relations, such as the Father generating the Son.

The Three Persons are not one person, in Catholicism that is a heresy which has taken many forms and was refuted utterly in the early centuries (in my opinion).

As I quoted in another post in this thread, with respect to the relationships alone, the Father is greater than the Son, but not greater in essence, which is subordinationism.

All in my opinion of course.

If you believe the Father is not greater in essence than the son then why do you wrote that only the Father is God?

 

[Lain]

Good thing you qualified this view as imo, because ALL the major churches define the Trinity as cited including the Roman Church (RCC), Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptists, Methodists which represents 90%+ of all Christians.

I only qualified this view as "in my opinion" because before the mods warned me about not stating that things are my opinion, in rule 8. The Roman Catholic Church defines the Trinity precisely as I defined it, and now this is a factual statement. I present you the evidence:

From the Pontifical Council on the Monarchy of the Father: "The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught by the undivided Church.

"On the basis of Jn. 15:26, this Symbol confesses the Spirit "to ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon" ("who takes his origin from the Father"). The Father alone is the principle without principle (arche anarchos) of the two other persons of the Trinity, the sole source (peghe) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"The Greek Fathers and the whole Christian Orient speak, in this regard, of the "Father's Monarchy," and the Western tradition, following St. Augustine, also confesses that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father principaliter, that is, as principle (De Trinitate XV, 25, 47, P.L. 42, 1094-1095). In this sense, therefore, the two traditions recognize that the "monarchy of the Father" implies that the Father is the sole Trinitarian Cause (Aitia) or Principle (Principium) of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a standard of teaching): "The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father." By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity"."

As to matters of fact I am able to say on this forum not only that it is my opinion, but also that it is objectively true. And so I state to you: it is objectively the case that the Roman Catholic Church affirms the Monarchy of the Father in the exact same sense as I defined it, and this is not just my opinion, but it is truth. I have proven it utterly.

One must not equivocate between the Monarchy of the Father, the common essence of the Persons, and their unity of operations. Which is being talked about must be indicated, because whether or not a statement is true depends on which is being talked about.

 

[Lain]

Are you protestant, Catholic or ortodox Christian?

You wrote "What you are calling "being" there we would call person".
Who is we?

If you believe the Father is not greater in essence than the son then why do you wrote that only the Father is God?

Roman Catholic.

Trinitarians, ignore "we," it was badly said, put instead "me." It is the only sense in which humans differ in that way and makes sense of that sentence. An equivocation between terms must not be made, so I will make them clear as it is necessary.

Because I was speaking of the Monarchy of the Father. Concerning essence, the Persons are co-equal, they all have the same essence and neither is less than the other in this. But concerning relationship the Father is truly said to be greater, as the Fathers I quoted said.

All in my opinion of course.

 

[shunyadragon]

I only qualified this view as "in my opinion" because before the mods warned me about not stating that things are my opinion, in rule 8. The Roman Catholic Church defines the Trinity precisely as I defined it, and now this is a factual statement. I present you the evidence:

From the Pontifical Council on the Monarchy of the Father: "The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught by the undivided Church.

"On the basis of Jn. 15:26, this Symbol confesses the Spirit "to ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon" ("who takes his origin from the Father"). The Father alone is the principle without principle (arche anarchos) of the two other persons of the Trinity, the sole source (peghe) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"The Greek Fathers and the whole Christian Orient speak, in this regard, of the "Father's Monarchy," and the Western tradition, following St. Augustine, also confesses that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father principaliter, that is, as principle (De Trinitate XV, 25, 47, P.L. 42, 1094-1095). In this sense, therefore, the two traditions recognize that the "monarchy of the Father" implies that the Father is the sole Trinitarian Cause (Aitia) or Principle (Principium) of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a standard of teaching): "The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381): "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father." By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity"."

As to matters of fact I am able to say on this forum not only that it is my opinion, but also that it is objectively true. And so I state to you: it is objectively the case that the Roman Catholic Church affirms the Monarchy of the Father in the exact same sense as I defined it, and this is not just my opinion, but it is truth. I have proven it utterly.

One must not equivocate between the Monarchy of the Father, the common essence of the Persons, and their unity of operations. Which is being talked about must be indicated, because whether or not a statement is true depends on which is being talked about.

What is the Trinity? | The Holy Family Catholic Primary School

The doctrine of the Trinity

There is one God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Trinity, or Holy Trinity, is a way of describing God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.



God the Father

God is described as God the Father because we believe that God is the creator of everything
and Lord over all the universe.

God the Son

God the Son refers to how we believe that God chose to come to earth as a human being in the form of Jesus,
the son of Mary.

God the Holy Spirit

Finally, God the Holy Spirit refers to the power of God
in our daily lives.

Yout sidestepping the fact that Jesus Christ is described as God incarnate, and physically separate from God the Father seated ar the tight hand of God the Father in heaven..

I also believe Mary Mother of Jesus Christ as described as Goddess, separate from humanity as Created without sin and a mediater between humanity and God.

 

[Lain]

What is the Trinity? | The Holy Family Catholic Primary School

The doctrine of the Trinity

There is one God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Trinity, or Holy Trinity, is a way of describing God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.



God the Father

God is described as God the Father because we believe that God is the creator of everything
and Lord over all the universe.

God the Son

God the Son refers to how we believe that God chose to come to earth as a human being in the form of Jesus,
the son of Mary.

God the Holy Spirit

Finally, God the Holy Spirit refers to the power of God
in our daily lives.

That statement is true, because it speaks of Their essence. Which one is being spoken of is clear from context, for even Tertullian said, rightly defending the Monarchy and distinction of Persons: "All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance..."

Either way, I quoted to you two official sources, both approved by Pope St. John Paul II and others who hold Office in the Church, and what you quoted did not contradict what I said, but you still refuse to recognize the clear distinction between unity from Monarchy, unity in essence, and unity in operation. Did you read the official documents?

 

[Starlight]

That statement is true, because it speaks of Their essence. Which one is being spoken of is clear from context, for even Tertullian said, rightly defending the Monarchy and distinction of Persons: "All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance..."

Either way, I quoted to you two official sources, both approved by Pope St. John Paul II and others who hold Office in the Church, and what you quoted did not contradict what I said, but you still refuse to recognize the clear distinction between unity from Monarchy, unity in essence, and unity in operation. Did you read the official documents?

I like your interpretation of the trinity but the fact is that many catholics believe the Father is not greater than the son

 

[Starlight]

That statement is true, because it speaks of Their essence. Which one is being spoken of is clear from context, for even Tertullian said, rightly defending the Monarchy and distinction of Persons: "All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance..."

Either way, I quoted to you two official sources, both approved by Pope St. John Paul II and others who hold Office in the Church, and what you quoted did not contradict what I said, but you still refuse to recognize the clear distinction between unity from Monarchy, unity in essence, and unity in operation. Did you read the official documents?

The article that @shunyadragon dragon wrote here did not mention that God the father is greater than the son or the holy spirit

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Is God three beings in one being according to christians on RF?

According to what I find in the Bible the answer is: No. God is Not 3 beings in one.
Psalms 90:2 says that God is from everlasting. In other words: God had No beginning.
Since God is also The Creator (Revelation 4:11) God had No Creator.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is Not from everlasting but Jesus was "IN" in beginning, but Not ' before ' the beginning.
Only God was 'before' the beginning, so Jesus was never ' before ' the beginning as his God was.
According to Colossians 1:15 pre-human Jesus was the firstborn of every creature.
God was never born, but always existed being from everlasting to everlasting.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12

 

[Lain]

I like your interpretation of the trinity but the fact is that many catholics believe the Father is not greater than the son

The article that @shunyadragon dragon wrote here did not mention that God the father is greater than the son

I got this view from reading the Church Fathers over time, not many people do that in general. When this is done one's idea of the Trinity becomes more precise to what they taught and one can see why the Church expresses her beliefs as as does and how this beliefs came to be expressed. The "appeal to the Fathers" is a dogmatic thing in Catholicism and they are the norm to judge things by, which is why the Catechism and Magisterium and the Pontifical Council cited and proved things using them. Whether or not individuals make use of this is another thing entirely.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This sounds like subordination. The belief that the Father is greater than the son and the holy spirit.
Two human beings is not one being. They are two different beings................

I find Jesus taught his Father is Greater at John 14:28 which is in harmony with John 20:17 because the resurrected Jesus had Not yet ascended to-> his Father, -> and to his God.
Even now the heavenly Jesus according to John at Revelation 3:12 heavenly Jesus still has a God over him.
The 'head' of Christ is God according to 1 Corinthians 11:3 B.
So, yes I agree, 'sounds like subordination', and God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is what God uses and Not God Himself.