Is God three beings in one being according to christians on RF?

[Mock Turtle]

That is not funny

So which aspect of our make-up is more reflective of God?

 

[Kenny]

If you believe the Father is not greater in essence than the son then why do you wrote that only the Father is God?

That concept is a real mind twister (in my studies).

Scripturally, it does say that the order of importance is The Father, being the greater one, and then Jesus and then the Holy Spirit.

Yet, interestingly enough, The Father and the Son put such great importance to the Holy Spirit portion that it is said (Paraphrased) "You can blaspheme the Father and the Son but the two will really pile you up on the heap of rubbish if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit" as if saying that the honoring of the Holy Spirit has greater import than honoring the other two.

Sometimes the principles of God are the reverse of what humanity understands.

The world will say, "If you are on the top of the totem pole, have everyone serve you" while God would say "If you want to be on the top of the totem pole, serve everyone".

and again,

The world will say "Get all you can and can all you get, invest, save, and don't spend" whereas God would say, "If you want to really be successful, give, help and sow your finances."

So God actually gives more importance to the "least of these" to make them more important than all the human stars.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Is God three beings in one being according to christians on RF?

I believe God is one, but He can manifest Himself in different beings.

 

[firedragon]

So which aspect of our make-up is more reflective of God?

Maybe blusher.

 

[Starlight]

Exactly, as all too many either accidentally or intentionally conflate the Trinitarian concept with polytheism, and this has been covered ad nauseum here at RF.

So you believe catholic christians who believe the Father, the son and holy spirit is equal, that the Father is not greater than the son is polytheists?

 

[Starlight]

I find Jesus taught his Father is Greater at John 14:28 which is in harmony with John 20:17 because the resurrected Jesus had Not yet ascended to-> his Father, -> and to his God.
Even now the heavenly Jesus according to John at Revelation 3:12 heavenly Jesus still has a God over him.
The 'head' of Christ is God according to 1 Corinthians 11:3 B.
So, yes I agree, 'sounds like subordination', and God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is what God uses and Not God Himself.

i agree with you. I believe Jesus is not God. I do not believe in the trinity.

 

[firedragon]

What you are calling "being" there we would call person.

This is an English sentence. And this whole thing would depend on what kind of discussion it is. If its a plain old discussion over coffee in plain English you are right. But if its a philosophical discussion you are wrong. That maybe why the use of the word being had its nuances in early christianity.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Maybe blusher.

For 50% perhaps, but what about the rest.

 

[Lain]

This is an English sentence. And this whole thing would depend on what kind of discussion it is. If its a plain old discussion over coffee in plain English you are right. But if its a philosophical discussion you are wrong. That maybe why the use of the word being had its nuances in early christianity.

It's a discussion about the Trinity, and I am invoking Trinitarian definitions of that word in my usage from specific works, not any English definition exactly (although there is often overlap for obvious reasons).

 

[firedragon]

For 50% perhaps, but what about the rest.

Mascara.

 

[firedragon]

It's a discussion about the Trinity, and I am invoking Trinitarian definitions of that word in my usage from specific works, not any English definition exactly (although there is often overlap for obvious reasons).

How about Origen?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not every hindu believe the 8 billion gods is manifestations of only one God. But yes some hindus believe all the gods is manifestations of only one God

Each Hindu decides his/her views and chosen deity, some may not subscribe to any. Most are polythiests. Even if they choose their personal God / Goddess, they will never deny other deities.

 

[Lain]

How about Origen?

I haven't read him (in detail that is) yet so I wouldn't cite him or reference him here. I am aware due to some mentions in theology books he had something to do with the development of the terms we represent by "being," ousia and hypostases, and also others such as the heresiarch Valentinus (who I think was the first person who claimed Christ and used the term hypostases in the context of the Deity at all, in a way similar to Trinitarians).

Looking up Origen's take, although I do not trust the SEP on this and will have to read him myself, it fits into what I know of the development of the term: "Origen was the first Christian to speak of three “hypostases” in the Trinity and to use the term homoousios (though only by analogy) of the relation between the second of these hypostases and the first. The Father, or first person, is nevertheless the only one who is autotheos, God in the fullest sense, whereas the Son is his dunamis or power and the Spirit a dependent being, operative only in the elect. All three are eternal and incorporeal, the Son being known as Wisdom in relation to the Father and Logos (reason, word) in relation to the world."

But no, I am not citing his usage of either of these words.

 

[Starlight]

What you are calling "being" there we would call person. Two humans are two persons, and they have one essence, that is "humanity" (which is why they are both called human). Subordinationism is that the Son and the Spirit are subordinate in essence to the Father, that is, they do not have the same essence. It does not touch relations, such as the Father generating the Son.

The Three Persons are not one person, in Catholicism that is a heresy which has taken many forms and was refuted utterly in the early centuries (in my opinion).

As I quoted in another post in this thread, with respect to the relationships alone, the Father is greater than the Son, but not greater in essence, which is subordinationism.

All in my opinion of course.

Athanasian creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

So the catholic faith do believe God is three persons/beings in one being

 

[Aupmanyav]

The belief that God is three persons in one being is not a contradiction. But the belief that God is three beings in one being is a contradiction yes

What is a contradiction for a all-mighty God? Square plug in a circular hole of the same size?

 

[firedragon]

I haven't read him (in detail that is) yet so I wouldn't cite him or reference him here. I am aware due to some mentions in theology books he had something to do with the development of the terms we represent by "being," ousia and hypostases, and also others such as the heresiarch Valentinus (who I think was the first person who claimed Christ and used the term hypostases in the context of the Deity at all, in a way similar to Trinitarians).

Looking up Origen's take, although I do not trust the SEP on this and will have to read him myself, it fits into what I know of the development of the term: "Origen was the first Christian to speak of three “hypostases” in the Trinity and to use the term homoousios (though only by analogy) of the relation between the second of these hypostases and the first. The Father, or first person, is nevertheless the only one who is autotheos, God in the fullest sense, whereas the Son is his dunamis or power and the Spirit a dependent being, operative only in the elect. All three are eternal and incorporeal, the Son being known as Wisdom in relation to the Father and Logos (reason, word) in relation to the world."

But no, I am not citing his usage of either of these words.

That is still third hand writings Lain. Origen is direct. Anyway, you dont seem to quote him or value his work.

So, how about Irenaeus of Lugdunum?

 

[Starlight]

Exactly, as all too many either accidentally or intentionally conflate the Trinitarian concept with polytheism, and this has been covered ad nauseum here at RF.

Athanasian creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

So the catholic faith do believe God is three persons/beings in one being

 

[Lain]

Athanasian creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

So the catholic faith do believe God is three persons/beings in one being

The section of this Creed you have bolded is referring to the essence/nature. It does not conflate Person and Essence. Depending on how one is defining "being" or what the use is, as I said before, a statement may or may not be true.

 

[Lain]

That is still third hand writings Lain. Origen is direct. Anyway, you dont seem to quote him or value his work.

So, how about Irenaeus of Lugdunum?

It is third-hand because I have not the time to read Origen directly on this matter right now, I also do not fully trust it. I love St. Irenaeus and value his work and quote him often for he is beautiful, but neither was I referring to his usage of the terms either, but actually primarily St. Basil of Caesarea and St. John of Damascus, especially St. John of Damascus for he is the one I am studying on the Trinity currently, who gives me the most light on the issue right now. And even more specifically, his work "Exposition of the Orthodox Faith," the first book of which deals with God alone.

 

[Starlight]

The section of this Creed you have bolded is referring to the essence/nature. It does not conflate Person and Essence. Depending on how one is defining "being" or what the use is, as I said before, a statement may or may not be true.

Yes it is refering to essence/substance.

Conjoined triples is three persons but share one essence/substance

God in the trinity doctrine is like conjoined triples. Three persons who share one essence/substance

You and your mother is two different essences/substances.