Is God's existence necessary?

[viole]

I believe an objective world existing independently of all subjectivity is an impossibility.

Good that you called it belief. By the way, you make the assumption that our mental processes are not objective. Do you think I can change your mental processes by observing them as they unfold on a brain scan?

Do you think that I should stop inquiring about why there is something rather than nothing because it is a question immune to our power of observation?

No. But you are making my point by attempting to do that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ArtieE]

At the very least, we can logically infer the existence of a necessary being.

No we can't. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-necessary-being/

 

[prometheus11]

Reason tells us that there is no other explanation.

And if you believe we do not need to invoke God to explain anything whatsoever, then your belief in God is completely irrational. This probably explains why you have characterized yourself as an "agnostic theist."

No. Reason does not tell us that.


Reason tells us that we anthropomorphize with limited information.

"The Reason" there is something and not nothing could be so far beyond our imagination that any attempt at considering it is futile. Like ants pondering nuclear fission.

In fact, why wouldn't it be way to far outside our ability to reason anything about it?

Asserting a "unaided cause" or "print mover" is like looking at an algebraic problem several pages long and insisting the answer "2" simply because you like the shape of the numeral.

 

[leibowde84]

Reason tells us that there is no other explanation.

And if you believe we do not need to invoke God to explain anything whatsoever, then your belief in God is completely irrational. This probably explains why you have characterized yourself as an "agnostic theist."

No, reason tells us that the absence of an alternative explanation does not support your argument. That is a basic and well-known logical fallacy called an argument from ignorance. So, "reason" cannot tell us that there is no other explanation. It can only tell us that currently we don't know of one.

And, I'm pretty sure that my personal beliefs aren't relevant to this thread, so I would appreciate keeping them out of it. We are discussing reasoning for the existence of God objectively, according to logical discourse.

 

[leibowde84]

I believe an objective world existing independently of all subjectivity is an impossibility.

What is your reasoning for holding this view? Are you saying that the world did not exist before life existed?

 

[serp777]

You know serp777, it is not true the physical body is all we are...but if that is your belief then anything more I have to say is a waste of my time and a waste of your time listening to it... But I admit you have shown to have made some pretty astute observations such as the upload into the cloud storage at death, etc....not bad at all... It is too early to be verifiable scientifically as the cloud 'modulation' is on/in the zpe field which is what I am calling the omnipresent aether or omnipresent dark energy or omnipresent spiritual energy....the name is not important... The vibrational frequency rates of zpe is too high to presently be monitored...

Well its all we know we are,. Its just the conclusion based on the available evidence and how people who have damaged gray matter become different people, like phinneas gauge for example. Its a reasonable conclusion based on the correlation between changes in brain material and changes in who a person is--a change in the ego. If you can update me with evidence of this mechanism then i am happy to change my views however. But if what you're saying is true then it should be quantifiable, which is fine by me. The only problem i have with something like this if its unflasifiable, but if there is some data transferring going on and there is a mechanism then its probably worth investigating. I mean you should try to go measure this. What do you mean by the vibrational frequency of zpe though? And what is it that has wave properties? If there is a vibration then it means some energy is being moved to transmit the information. Furthermore, does this only affect brains or would it affect a simulation of a brain on a computer or an artificial intelligence and when does this mechanism start affecting animals? Does it "download" the lifetime of worms, for instance, which only have a couple hundred neurons?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ok ... can you provide a definition for that term? Just seems incredibly vague to me.

Well, defining a term which is beyond the physical observational range is always going to be problematical when dealing with an atheist or agnostic....but it is just another concept to represent the reality represented by the concept of spiritual awareness...

 

[leibowde84]

Well, defining a term which is beyond the physical observational range is always going to be problematical when dealing with an atheist or agnostic....but it is just another concept to represent the reality represented by the concept of spiritual awareness...

So, you are unable to define it, then?

 

[Janardena]

Because you are interacting with me. I make a comment or ask a question and you respond. I have no reason to think that it isn't real, as no evidence is present that would lead me to that conclusion. Thus, it is fact, or indisputably the case.

But how do you know it's true?
What is your justification?

 

[McBell]

Well, defining a term which is beyond the physical observational range is always going to be problematical when dealing with an atheist or agnostic....but it is just another concept to represent the reality represented by the concept of spiritual awareness...

Now that is a huge steaming pile of bull **** used in place of answering a direct inquiry...

 

[Milton Platt]

Do you believe it is possible for God not to exist?

It is easier for him not to exist than it is for him to exist.

 

[Milton Platt]

Now that is a huge steaming pile of bull **** used in place of answering a direct inquiry...

If he means by "beyond observational range" that it is undetectable and not measurable, then he cannot know it exists. His argument has no substance. Actually, he has no argument.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So, you are unable to define it, then?

Science is getting there..let me say that the spiritual light is EM radiation of the zero point energy continuum... As to what science knows about the zpe at this stage I have discussed on another thread so let me repeat it again for you...http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...sing-parts-or-not.182514/page-11#post-4554021

Now get this...the vacuum of space, the zero point energy, the aether, and dark energy...are all terms that refer to some energy that occupies omnipresent space. At this stage let us not concern ourselves with the emotions associated with the names....a rose by any other name imho....but the present knowledge. Zero point energy is the term being used in scientific experiments and given that military research these days is generally miles ahead of the academic curriculum...I will quote from a patent paper by a military researcher, a brief description as to what we know about the aether.... Reference...http://www.google.com.au/patents/US5590031

The existence of zero point electromagnetic radiation was discovered in 1958 by the Dutch physicist M. J. Sparnaay. Mr. Sparnaay continued the experiments carried out by Hendrik B. G. Casimir in 1948 which showed the existence of a force between two uncharged parallel plates which arose from electromagnetic radiation surrounding the plates in a vacuum. Mr. Sparnaay discovered that the forces acting on the plates arose from not only thermal radiation but also from another type of radiation now known as classical electromagnetic zero point radiation. Mr. Sparnaay determined that not only did the zero point electromagnetic radiation exist in a vacuum but also that it persisted even at a temperature of absolute zero. Because it exists in a vacuum, zero point radiation is homogeneous and isotropic as well as ubiquitous. In addition, since zero point radiation is also invariant with respect to Lorentz transformation, the zero point radiation spectrum has the characteristic that the intensity of the radiation at any frequency is proportional to the cube of that frequency. Consequently, the intensity of the radiation increases without limit as the frequency increases resulting in an infinite energy density for the radiation spectrum. With the introduction of the zero point radiation into the classical electron theory, a vacuum at a temperature of absolute zero is no longer considered empty of all electromagnetic fields. Instead, the vacuum is now considered as filled with randomly fluctuating fields having the zero point radiation spectrum. The special characteristics of the zero point radiation which are that it has a virtually infinite energy density and that it is ubiquitous (even present in outer space) make it very desirable as an energy source. However, because high energy densities exist at very high radiation frequencies and because conventional methods are only able to convert or extract energy effectively or efficiently only at lower frequencies at which zero point radiation has relatively low energy densities, effectively tapping this energy source has been believed to be unavailable using conventional techniques for converting electromagnetic energy to electrical or other forms of easily useable energy. Consequently, zero point electromagnetic radiation energy which may potentially be used to power interplanetary craft as well as provide for society's other needs has remained unharnessed.

So there is something called zpe that occupies the same space as was hypothesized for the aether, so there is no reason at this stage not to allow that this zpe is the long theorized aether...but again I say to you that I am happy to drop using the term aether and use zpe instead if that is what you prefer. The thing is if you understand what is being said about the zpe, is not only is it omnipresent...it appears to be have infinite energy power content.....and is a vibrational frequency continuum with EM wavelengths down to the infintesimal...so the dark energy must be a part of this continuum, and presuming spiritual energy also to be vibrational...it must also be a part of this continuum..

If you prefer to believe that the omnipresent reality represented by the concept of zpe (which I sometimes refer to as dark energy, aether or spirit ) can't be proven or is not relevant, then that is fine too...no bother for me just there is nothing more to be said...

 

[Milton Platt]

Science is getting there..let me say that the spiritual light is EM radiation of the zero point energy continuum... As to what science knows about the zpe at this stage I have discussed on another thread so let me repeat it again for you...http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/neurocluster-brain-model-–-can-the-soul-be-divided-into-the-composing-parts-or-not.182514/page-11#post-4554021

Now get this...the vacuum of space, the zero point energy, the aether, and dark energy...are all terms that refer to some energy that occupies omnipresent space. At this stage let us not concern ourselves with the emotions associated with the names....a rose by any other name imho....but the present knowledge. Zero point energy is the term being used in scientific experiments and given that military research these days is generally miles ahead of the academic curriculum...I will quote from a patent paper by a military researcher, a brief description as to what we know about the aether.... Reference...http://www.google.com.au/patents/US5590031

The existence of zero point electromagnetic radiation was discovered in 1958 by the Dutch physicist M. J. Sparnaay. Mr. Sparnaay continued the experiments carried out by Hendrik B. G. Casimir in 1948 which showed the existence of a force between two uncharged parallel plates which arose from electromagnetic radiation surrounding the plates in a vacuum. Mr. Sparnaay discovered that the forces acting on the plates arose from not only thermal radiation but also from another type of radiation now known as classical electromagnetic zero point radiation. Mr. Sparnaay determined that not only did the zero point electromagnetic radiation exist in a vacuum but also that it persisted even at a temperature of absolute zero. Because it exists in a vacuum, zero point radiation is homogeneous and isotropic as well as ubiquitous. In addition, since zero point radiation is also invariant with respect to Lorentz transformation, the zero point radiation spectrum has the characteristic that the intensity of the radiation at any frequency is proportional to the cube of that frequency. Consequently, the intensity of the radiation increases without limit as the frequency increases resulting in an infinite energy density for the radiation spectrum. With the introduction of the zero point radiation into the classical electron theory, a vacuum at a temperature of absolute zero is no longer considered empty of all electromagnetic fields. Instead, the vacuum is now considered as filled with randomly fluctuating fields having the zero point radiation spectrum. The special characteristics of the zero point radiation which are that it has a virtually infinite energy density and that it is ubiquitous (even present in outer space) make it very desirable as an energy source. However, because high energy densities exist at very high radiation frequencies and because conventional methods are only able to convert or extract energy effectively or efficiently only at lower frequencies at which zero point radiation has relatively low energy densities, effectively tapping this energy source has been believed to be unavailable using conventional techniques for converting electromagnetic energy to electrical or other forms of easily useable energy. Consequently, zero point electromagnetic radiation energy which may potentially be used to power interplanetary craft as well as provide for society's other needs has remained unharnessed.

So there is something called zpe that occupies the same space as was hypothesized for the aether, so there is no reason at this stage not to allow that this zpe is the long theorized aether...but again I say to you that I am happy to drop using the term aether and use zpe instead if that is what you prefer. The thing is if you understand what is being said about the zpe, is not only is it omnipresent...it appears to be have infinite energy power content.....and is a vibrational frequency continuum with EM wavelengths down to the infintesimal...so the dark energy must be a part of this continuum, and presuming spiritual energy also to be vibrational...it must also be a part of this continuum..

If you prefer to believe that the omnipresent reality represented by the concept of zpe (which I sometimes refer to as dark energy, aether or spirit ) can't be proven or is not relevant, then that is fine too...no bother for me just there is nothing more to be said...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Now that is a huge steaming pile of bull **** used in place of answering a direct inquiry...

Thing is your faith in atheism blinds you to real understanding. Quote from a blogger I know......"Faith is a device of self-delusion, a slight of hand done with words and emotions founded on any irrational notion that can be dreamed up. Faith is the attempt to coerce truth to surrender to whim.It is trying to breathe life into a lie by trying to outshine reality with the beauty of wishes. Faith is the refuge of fools, the ignorant, and the deluded, not of thinking, rational people. " lol....It is time for you to inquire deeper as to what and who you really are...

And fwiw, read my comment to liebowde84 about inquiry into zpe,,,

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If he means by "beyond observational range" that it is undetectable and not measurable, then he cannot know it exists. His argument has no substance. Actually, he has no argument.

Another atheist whose faith in his flawed knowledge is such that he gets egg all over his face.... The reality represented by the term dark energy is undetectable and not measurable, but science nevertheless posits that it exists...so it is your argument that has no substance!

 

[prometheus11]

Dark energy is measurable. Science wouldn't have given it a name if they didn't see AND MEASURE its effects

Is that all?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Dark energy is measurable. Science wouldn't have given it a name if they didn't see AND MEASURE its effects

Is that all?

No...dark energy is not measurable...there is a difference between numerical simulations that predict the presence of a reality represented by the term dark energy...but numerical models are not real direct measurements of dark energy...

This from the article referencing a research paper on what the universe is made of....which to my reading implies only 2.5% of the universe is measurable..the remaining 97.5% is known to exist by numerical simulation...but not measurable..

Matter known as ordinary, which makes up everything we know, corresponds to only 5% of the Universe. Approximately half of this percentage still eluded detection. Numerical simulations made it possible to predict that the rest of this ordinary matter should be located in the large-scale structures that form the 'cosmic web' at temperatures between 100,000 and 10 million degrees. A team led by a researcher from the University of Geneva (UNIGE), Switzerland, observed this phenomenon directly. The research shows that the majority of the missing ordinary matter is found in the form of a very hot gas associated with intergalactic filaments. The article reporting this discovery is published in the journal Nature.

http://spaceref.com/astronomy/what-is-the-universe-made-of.html

 

[prometheus11]

What are you doing discussing matter? Weren't we talking about dark energy?

You do realize that we detect AND MEASURE dark energy and gravity in exactly the same way, right? We observe their effects on the surrounding matter.

You can question the existence of dark energy ONLY to the degree you also question the existence of gravity. Do you doubt the existence of gravity?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What are you doing discussing matter? Weren't we talking about dark energy?

You do realize that we detect AND MEASURE dark energy and gravity in exactly the same way, right? We observe their effects on the surrounding matter.

You can question the existence of dark energy ONLY to the degree you also question the existence of gravity. Do you doubt the existence of gravity?

Let us cut to the chase...show your evidence that dark energy has been measured....no evidence...it hasn't happened!!!