Is God's existence necessary?

[Ben Dhyan]

Ben, you keep ignoring gravity. Why?

We detect gravity and dark energy in the same way. We measure an effect on matter and KNOW that something we don't understand is working.

The measurements of one effect, we call "gravity."

The measurements of another effect, we call "dark energy."

You can deny the measurements or the names science has given them, but you can't claim gravity and dark energy aren't measured. The measurements came first, then people named them. In one case "gravity," and in the other case "dark energy."

So which FACT are you currently denying?

I am not ignoring gravity....gravitational anomalies in the universal expansion is the first order effect that led to the presumption of a universal reality that is represented by the concept of dark energy.. Observing gravitational anomalies of universal expansion itself is not a measurement of dark energy... There is no measurement of dark energy...there is measurement of gravitational anomalies caused by dark energy....this is not the same thing as measuring dark energy...Science is not saying that gravitational force itself is dark energy..... Interesting thought though....

 

[prometheus11]

Sigh...

EVERY....SINGLE....OBJECTION you raise against their being a measurement of dark energy can be made about gravity.


1. Phenomena detected by measuring observations.

2. Phenomena observed provided a name.

3. In one case, the measurements that proved phenomena was occurring was deemed "gravity."

4. In a separate case, the measurements that proved the phenomena was occurring was called "dark energy."

5. Neither gravity nor dark energy are directly observed; both are named because we kept measuring their effects.

You are welcome to deny any of these facts, but these facts won't be affected by your denial.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sigh...

EVERY....SINGLE....OBJECTION you raise against their being a measurement of dark energy can be made about gravity.


1. Phenomena detected by measuring observations.

2. Phenomena observed provided a name.

3. In one case, the measurements that proved phenomena was occurring was deemed "gravity."

4. In a separate case, the measurements that proved the phenomena was occurring was called "dark energy."

5. Neither gravity nor dark energy are directly observed; both are named because we kept measuring their effects.

You are welcome to deny any of these facts, but these facts won't be affected by your denial.

OMG.. what is wrong with you...gravitational force can be measured...dark energy can not...it is the observation of gravitational anomalous effects that suggested there was a cause...and so they called the cause....dark energy...but it can not be measured...and it can't be detected directly.

Here is how science measures gravity....Fgrav = (Gm1m2)/d2

Show me how science measures dark energy....????

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The fluctuations of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) are the imprint of structure in the early universe. The angular sizes (shown in the plot on the right) of the fluctuations tell cosmologists about the amount of dark matter, dark energy, and ordinary matter in the universe.
CMB map: NASA/WMAP Science Team; Data plot: Astronomy: Roen Kelly after NASA/WMAP Science Team
The data plot shows the power in these

So, scientists DO measure dark matter and dark energy. They measure the effects and extrapolate from there. Just like we know how long it takes for Pluto to complete an orbit of the sun, even though it takes longer than we have actually known Pluto existed.

OMG....science is not your forte...that is not talking about the measurement of dark energy....it's about the gravitational effects of universal mass contributions...of course dark energy causes an effect...as does ordinary matter...but the measurement of gravitational effects on universal expansion is not the measurement of dark energy, dark matter, and ordinary matter...

Here is how science measures gravity....Fgrav = (Gm1m2)/d2

Show me how science measures dark energy....????

Besides which. I could have just as easily used the 2.5% of physical matter that science knows exists, but could not detect to show your argument was erroneous... They still included it under the name matter though......

http://spaceref.com/astronomy/what-is-the-universe-made-of.html

Matter known as ordinary, which makes up everything we know, corresponds to only 5% of the Universe. Approximately half of this percentage still eluded detection. Numerical simulations made it possible to predict that the rest of this ordinary matter should be located in the large-scale structures that form the 'cosmic web' at temperatures between 100,000 and 10 million degrees.

Either way you have egg all over your face...

 

[Pudding]

God is believed to be Spirit, without the fault of death.

if He does not exist .....the universe is moving to death.
permanently

You say it's a beliefs that God is spirit which can't decease, then go on to claims that "if He does not exist .....the universe is moving to death. permanently".
I suppose that claims is a beliefs too, how probably will it come true when compare with other similar claims?

if God A/B/C/D/E...etc does not exist .....the universe is moving to death. permanently ?
Very frightening...

 

[Pudding]

this demonstrates the ability to observe an effect and realize the hidden cause.

the universe is the effect
God is the Cause.

There're many Gods which believe in by many different people, which God?
Your God, his God, their God?
God A, God B, God C...etc?

Believer a: God A is the cause, because he told me so, because i've first hand experience, because many evidence point to this possibilities. I believe in my true God A.

Believer b: God B is the cause, because he told me so, because i've first hand experience, because many evidence point to this possibilities. I believe in my true God B.

Believer c: God C is the cause, because he told me so, because i've first hand experience, because many evidence point to this possibilities. I believe in my true God C.

Believer d: All the Gods is the one same God, just in different names, personality, and dogma...etc. My opinion is base on thoroughly research about many and almost all religion, i believe my conclusion is true, i also believe in my true God.

All is equally very convincing... or not.

 

[Pudding]

and without the Spirit....life (yours included) was an event without purpose, intent or resolve

Believer a: It's true, without my true Spirit God A then all human's life have no purpose.
Believer b: Mine is truer than yours, without my true Spirit God B then all human's life have no purpose.
Believer c: Mine is the truest, without my true Spirit God C then all human's life have no purpose.

Spirit first? Substance first? True God A first? True God B first? True God C first? True God variation 1 first? True God variation 2 first? True God variation 3 first? ...

 

[Milton Platt]

and without the Spirit....life (yours included) was an event without purpose, intent or resolve

Purpose is something humans give to their own life

 

[Janardena]

Purpose is something humans give to their own life

Where do humans get it from?

 

[ArtieE]

Where do humans get it from?

Evolution and natural selection. Survive and procreate.

 

[Janardena]

Evolution and natural selection. Survive and procreate.

Where, in evolution, can we find purpose?

 

[ArtieE]

Where, in evolution, can we find purpose?

Our purpose is to survive and reproduce. A doctors purpose in life is to help people survive.

 

[leibowde84]

same question....right back at you.....
but I don't believe science can answer the op....

the choice remains...

Human beings have a drive for certainty/answers that often leads us to make unjustified assumptions. Thus, I don't think it is reasonable to answer or, much less, expect an answer to your "choice" that remains.

 

[Janardena]

Our purpose is to survive and reproduce. A doctors purpose in life is to help people survive.

If purpose is something humans give to their own lives, and purpose comes from evolution to help people to survive: What IS purpose?

 

[ArtieE]

If purpose is something humans give to their own lives, and purpose comes from evolution to help people to survive: What IS purpose?

Purpose is the reason for which something is done. The purpose of what a doctor does is to help people survive.

 

[Thief]

Believer a: It's true, without my true Spirit God A then all human's life have no purpose.
Believer b: Mine is truer than yours, without my true Spirit God B then all human's life have no purpose.
Believer c: Mine is the truest, without my true Spirit God C then all human's life have no purpose.

Spirit first? Substance first? True God A first? True God B first? True God C first? True God variation 1 first? True God variation 2 first? True God variation 3 first? ...

now you seem confused....

 

[Thief]

Human beings have a drive for certainty/answers that often leads us to make unjustified assumptions. Thus, I don't think it is reasonable to answer or, much less, expect an answer to your "choice" that remains.

I think it is impotent to stand in ignorance....
waiting.....................................................................for someone to tell you what to believe.....

your choice.
throw it away if you want to

 

[leibowde84]

I think it is impotent to stand in ignorance....
waiting.....................................................................for someone to tell you what to believe.....

your choice.
throw it away if you want to

And, I find it extremely arrogant and foolish to claim to know what you obviously do not, rather than modestly admitting the truth. Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Thief]

Purpose is something humans give to their own life

nay....

your body is built with an obvious intent......
you are here to learn all that you can before you die.

what becomes of you after the last breath will be important.
unless you are content to let that potential go

 

[Thief]

And, I find it extremely arrogant and foolish to claim to know what you obviously do not, rather than modestly admitting the truth. Agree to disagree I guess.

I can be sure.
if you want to label that as arrogant......you are exaggerating.....

I could agree to your own claim.....ignorance.
too bad the humility isn't there

I have no comfort to offer and cannot stand to any shallow agreement with you