• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is halloween _pagan

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
People didn’t immediately change everything they knew, but 1500+ years is a very long time for beliefs and practices to be diluted and changed beyond all recognition.
First, I want to say I appreciate your input even though I disagree. The belief in the fairy, the otherworld, and connection to the spirits of the land did not change beyond recognition in western Ireland. This is a modernist mindset because it is hard people not open to or raised with these relationships to understand and grasp the significance to the the people who still have relationships with the otherworldly beings. Now if you want to say these reltionships are now considered purely christian the I would like for you to explain how these are related to the christian religion. The fact that recently in iceland they had to stop a runway prodject because of the landwrights living in a rock in the way of the construction is consistant with pre-christian relationships.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean neo-pagans are not sincere, creative, wise or knowledgeable, or that their practices are any less meaningful or worthy than anyone else's, just that I don't think it is possible to create enough meaningful continuity to see them as proximate traditions.

Most pagan seriously doing his believe you can relive in the past the direct continuity was lost for both Celtic and Norse which were never a single entity at any time but always changing. But to say they do not approximate the traditions is to not be aware of what is happening in the community. This has to do with the source of knowledge for most indigenous people. These religions were not revealed and never written down. They were experiential and phenomenal religions. The source of knowledge for the pre-Christian religions is still present today. There is enough information in other indigenous cultures to draw from along with ongoing cultural remnants and comparative mythology as well as direct experience with the other numinous beings. Most modern people have difficulty understanding this because they are imbedded in a culture that is so dependent on the written word and logic. Those have their place but there is much more to the experiential and phenomenal interactions that is misunderstood.

Let me ask you this, do you see god or the gods as supernatural and outside of nature or to you see god or the gods as immanent and within the natural world?
 
First, I want to say I appreciate your input even though I disagree.

It's an interesting discussion, thank you :)

Now if you want to say these reltionships are now considered purely christian the I would like for you to explain how these are related to the christian religion. The fact that recently in iceland they had to stop a runway prodject because of the landwrights living in a rock in the way of the construction is consistant with pre-christian relationships.

I spent much of my life living in a majority Muslim country where animistic and shamanic folk beliefs in magic, spirits and ghosts are still common today. I remember getting stuck in a traffic jam that was caused by people trying to get a ghost out of a tree.

There is a process of mutual influence which changes the nature of both. It's always hard to say to what extent something reflects a genuinely ancient belief, or what is a more recent reimagining and adaptation of cultural motifs.

But to say they do not approximate the traditions is to not be aware of what is happening in the community. This has to do with the source of knowledge for most indigenous people. These religions were not revealed and never written down. They were experiential and phenomenal religions. The source of knowledge for the pre-Christian religions is still present today. There is enough information in other indigenous cultures to draw from along with ongoing cultural remnants and comparative mythology as well as direct experience with the other numinous beings. Most modern people have difficulty understanding this because they are imbedded in a culture that is so dependent on the written word and logic. Those have their place but there is much more to the experiential and phenomenal interactions that is misunderstood.

I see it the other way round, as for me this is the reason they cannot be recreated in any meaningful sense.

If they were experiential and phenomenal, and the experience and phenomena of the modern world are vastly different, then what is reimagined and repurposed from the echos of the old ways has little in common.

Modern communication tech is basically an extension of the senses, and alongside modern education and scientific knowledge, industrial development, etc. creates a radically different perception of our environment, an environment that has itself been radically changed.

Archaeological findings are often ambiguous and may support a range of contradictory narratives that are equally plausible and equally unprovable. Folk tales, myths and sagas redacted by Christians or 19th C Romantics are often of unknown accuracy.

Like in science where observations are theory laden (what you observe depends on which theoretical presuppositions you are operating with), this is true of how we all observe the past.

Let me ask you this, do you see god or the gods as supernatural and outside of nature or to you see god or the gods as immanent and within the natural world?

I don't believe in gods, so neither.

Other people may perceive them which ever way they personally find more meaningful.
 
Top